Spider-Man: No Way Home

[PASTE TRANS

Josué Cardona 0:11
Welcome to GT radio on the Geek Therapy network here at Geek Therapy. We believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about, my name is Josué Cardona. and I’m joined by Lara Taylor Kester.

Lara Taylor 0:21
Hey,

Josué Cardona 0:22
hello. And a special guest, Marc Cuiriz.

Marc Cuiriz 0:26
Hello,

Lara Taylor 0:27
what is he doing here?

Josué Cardona 0:29
He’s abiding by our very strict. Once a year rule, he’s not allowed on the show more than once per year.

Lara Taylor 0:35
Okay, yeah. Cutting it close this here?

Josué Cardona 0:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Only at the end of the year. Is he allowed to come by maybe so.

Marc Cuiriz 0:45
So you want to know something? That’s funny. The last time I was actually on GT was last year in November, when the rise of Skywalker came out. And we did a whole Star Wars Episode. Yeah. Yeah,

Josué Cardona 0:57
I know. I know.

Marc Cuiriz 0:58
So it seems like I’m only invited on when there’s a big premiere of movies.

Josué Cardona 1:03
No, you’re actually

Lara Taylor 1:05
no

Josué Cardona 1:05
the reason why you’re on here is because you represent a different spectrum on the age continuum, than we do obviously, Lara’s At the opposite extreme.

Lara Taylor 1:24
Thanks,

Josué Cardona 1:24
among us, You’re You’re the youngest one.

Lara Taylor 1:27
I am a month older than you.

Josué Cardona 1:30
You’re still the oldest one. But but there was something about that that Star Wars Episode, right where it was, you have such a different experience than I do with Star Wars, right? Like for you, it was new. And, and so for today, we’re going to be talking about spider man, no way home. And not only is is Spider Man, super important to you. But you said something to me. The day before the movie came out. You said like, this is like my entire childhood. in like in one movie. And I thought about that. I was like, what, when? But how different is that? From from, from my experience? And I think it is. And and I know Spider Man is a super important character to you. So that’s why I really, I’m really happy that you’re here to provide a perspective. Of course, this is a super spoiler filled episode. I hope you’re here because you want to learn more about the movie. sure, get our reactions, of course, but really the different themes that we we each identified, I’m sure we saw it and thought very different things. And hopefully, this will be helpful for you, listener, as you as you think about the movie and talk about it with other people and you know, get an idea of how meaningful some of the themes in this movie can be. So so with that. No, come back later. If you haven’t watched it, if you haven’t watched Spider Man no way home if you have welcome. And let’s start with Marc, what what does the character Spider Man mean to you?

Marc Cuiriz 3:12
What a Spider Man mean to me. Oh, man, this is this is a loaded question because he means he means he means many different things to me. I mean, first and foremost, he sort of has that representation of, you know what, like what you were talking about earlier, where I kind of represent this on the younger side of this generation here. In terms of like, you know, talking about millennials, I know I’m like very at the cusp. You could call me a zillennial, or whatever you want to call it. The point is, is that, you know, he, you know, Peter Parker when he’s bitten, he’s just a teenager, and he has to figure out the whole superhero gig, basically by himself, at least in the comics. So we represent that younger, more childish side. But also, he’s probably one of the more realistic superheroes that I was exposed to as a kid. You know, growing up, you have the the, the iconic ones, you have Superman, you have Batman. And you know, Batman, I know is pretty realistic in the sense that, you know, he’s just normal human, he has no powers, but he’s also mega rich, which is also extremely unrealistic to someone like me, who’s, you know, always kind of lived in the working class or below. And so to have someone like Peter Parker, and spider man, to basically be someone like me, just with the unfortunate or fortunate accident of being bitten by a radioactive spider is is something that has always stuck out to me and has always shown me that you know what, it doesn’t matter how old you are. It doesn’t matter where you come from. You always have this potential to do great things and to help so many other people with your gifts. It doesn’t necessarily need to be something spectacular, as long as you sort of have the heart and the conviction to always kind of stand up and do what’s right. And in his case, it’s odd at the times looking out for the little guys, you know, like they have in which movie was it? It was Civil War at the end or not civil war. Oh, God, no, Marvel no Marvel knowledge is leaving me. No, I wasn’t winter soldier. No, no, it afterwards

Lara Taylor 5:34
was debuting in civil war. Yeah,

Marc Cuiriz 5:37
it was, it was, oh, it was homecoming. My apologies. So they have been homecoming. When he says, like, you know, I want to be the friendly neighborhood Spider Man, I want to look out for the little guys. So he’s not sitting here, you know, protecting government agencies. He’s not out there protecting his own corporation. It’s no, I got to protect the everyday citizens of New York from you know, muggers and burglars and things of the sort he wants to be there for them. He is the people’s hero. And you even see that with with spider with the video game with Miles Morales, you know, kind of deviating a little bit, but we still have the the moniker of spider man. And, you know, kind of spoilers for that game. You know, at the end, we have one of the you know, one of the people of Harlem saying that’s our spider man, because he represents them, and he’s fighting for them based on the actions that he’s doing and what he kind of is standing up for. So that’s kind of like, I think the biggest thing for what’s how, what Spider Man sort of means to me is that you’re there for the people, and you’re there to do whatever you can to help them to the best of your abilities with the gifts or the knowledge that you have.

Josué Cardona 6:53
I was telling my therapist today that the Spider Man is known for, you know, having storylines and or having an element to his stories where like, he has to have a job and he has to pay the rent. And, and he struggles with things that you know, people struggle with on a day to day basis in a very relatable way. He’s not the only character but he I think he’s definitely probably the first superhero, that that did that kind of thing. And it’s it’s core to to the character and of course over the years, you know, Spider Man has been many, many different things. Including, like being portrayed by different actors and different movies. Okay, so just quick reactions to to the movie Lara. What what did you? What did you think of the movie?

Lara Taylor 7:43
I cried a lot. It was very good movie. It was everything. Like Marc was talking about this is his childhood coming to life or whatever, right? This is my entire adulthood and spider man because the first Spider Man movie came out when I was in college right out of moving out of my dad. We’re not moving out of my dad’s house, but right when I started college, and so I have had the knowledge of the Tobey Maguire and the Andrew Garfield and I was so excited to see them in this movie. And those are some of my favorite interactions are the three of them together in this movie. So that’s my quick take is that like it was like, my entire because I think Spider Man was the first superhero it was before any of the Marvel stuff. Like it was the Sony Spider Man movie.

Josué Cardona 8:37
iron man and spider man came out right around the same time

Lara Taylor 8:40
right around the same time. So it’s like, all of that was the beginning. And so I think seeing Tobey Maguire on the screen was one of my favorite things when When’s he coming?

Josué Cardona 8:54
Yeah.

Lara Taylor 8:56
Don’t give me Andrew Garfield first.

Josué Cardona 9:00
Yeah, I mean, I expected them there but I was still I was like, maybe they won’t be I mean, I don’t I don’t know. I wasn’t I wasn’t super sure. And especially how much they would be there marc your quick reactions to the movie.

Marc Cuiriz 9:15
Well, I was at the edge of my seat the entire time. I went to one of those theaters where like they have dinner like they served dinner as well. I completely forgot my my food existed

Josué Cardona 9:27
well, it was drowning in tears I’m sure

Marc Cuiriz 9:30
Oh yeah. Oh, one 100%

Josué Cardona 9:33
soggy

Marc Cuiriz 9:34
Exactly. My chicken tendies just completely soaked. My fiance kept trying to like hold my hand and like I would hold it for like five seconds and then immediately like pull it away and like pull a toast to my chest because I was just so excited about what was happening on the screen. And you know, I it brings me back because I remember when Spider Man three came out I was in fifth grade and I remember coming home from school. I know that I’m aging all of you guys Right now I can see your faces hilarious

Josué Cardona 10:01
we started, laid that foundation

Lara Taylor 10:02
started, we started the millennial generation, you ended it, as we’re all millennials here

Marc Cuiriz 10:10
exactly and I just remember coming home from school. And it was like in a storm that day, but it was like the Friday that the movie came out. And I remember my mom taking me to the theater and just sitting there and watching the end of the trilogy here. And it was just like that like that’s like the one of the clearest earliest memories I have of Spider Man aside from watching like the cartoon, the 80s cartoon

Lara Taylor 10:34
90s

Marc Cuiriz 10:36
1990s 80s, you know? Oh, yeah, exactly. But no, it’s it was just all around completely amazing. And even hearing like, the jokes that they were like, the subtle jokes they had towards like, you know, Andrew Garfield at his expense. And him like totally going along with it. It was, I thought it was great. I thought it had some really nice, even meta jokes in there that were just top tier.

Josué Cardona 11:02
Yeah, and my reactions also cried a lot. This week messed me up, like, part of the reason why we’re doing this episode is mostly so I can process some of my feelings about it.

Lara Taylor 11:16
As many of our episodes go Josué

Josué Cardona 11:19
they’re for us.

Marc Cuiriz 11:21
I love processing things.

Josué Cardona 11:22
Yeah, yeah. Couldn’t process it for long enough with my therapist earlier today. So you all get to do the rest of that. I, the MCU is incredibly rewarding, the more you invest into it, and the payoff of knowing of getting all those references and being connected to all those other movies and knowing those characters. It keeps getting harder and harder to explain to people. Because it required for us. I mean, we we watched them as they came out, right? Even Even you marc I’m sure right? Like, you know, you went to theater to see the third one. And there’s been a lot of stuff since then. You rented the first two, but it was just like two that you had to go back and check right and, and see that way. But but like anyone who’s younger now, like there’s so much to watch and catch up on to be able to understand all these things. And I think I was surprised at the movie, I think it does a good job of if this is your, you could come into this movie fresh and it explains everything to you. Because there’s so much weird stuff happening that they have to explain it to to Peter and MJ and Annette so that that happens. And so I think they pulled that off. I think they pulled I think they they did everything. They didn’t waste a single opportunity. It feels like with the resources that they had available. Everybody was it was I don’t know, it was it was a hell of an experience. And and ultimately, I’m sure we’ll get to it later. But ultimately, I felt but we’ll get to my feelings about it later. I have very strong feelings about the movie, but I think it’s an amazing experience to to have something like this. And it’s just it’s just it was it was it was Shocking. Shocking. But but but but really great. That’s kind of my my reaction. So yeah, so there’s so much in it that that can mean different things to the different people. So what are the what are the the biggest things that you think we should talk about Marc give me give me give me the biggest thing that you think we should we should talk about? Biggest theme. biggest event? Biggest moment?

Marc Cuiriz 13:56
The biggest moment?

Josué Cardona 13:58
Yeah, not necessarily your favorite just like the most important kind of thing.

Marc Cuiriz 14:02
I think and this is this is where like most of my tears are shed and it kind of goes without saying but I think it’s when Aunt May dies and it’s it was the most heart wrenching thing because like you like the moment you saw her standing in front of the door even before you know goblin even comes through you you just knew that the way it was standing in the way it was it was portrayed it you just saw it coming a mile away but it still didn’t take away from the the heartbreaking moment. Especially once once Tom Holland you know, Peter kind of realizes what’s happening. Um, and just kind of understanding that that impact and more so kind of playing into then this this darker side of, of Tom Holland because, you know, up until this point we’ve only ever seen him as the The cheeky sarcastic teenager high school kid. And after this moment, we see a huge dramatic shift in his in his thought process and even in his emotions, like it all takes a much darker turn. Which I think is something that was really interesting and, you know, totally makes the what happens in the post credit scenes very much. You know, something that I definitely see coming in the future. And I’m very much excited to see happen in the future.

Josué Cardona 15:34
What do you mean from the post credit scenes?

Marc Cuiriz 15:37
Oh, you like when when they have venom, and then you see, he kind of he when he gets sent back to his own universe, and then you see that there’s a little drop of venom that stayed, which, you know, plot wise, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Like, if you think about it, it really doesn’t like that, that it shouldn’t stay there. But the fact that it does, and knowing what Venom kind of what venom is known to do to you know, Peter when he’s wearing it, or when he has Venom attached to him. It especially when you see how angry he got and how much he and how willing he was ready to to kill the Green Goblin? Yeah. Like it just makes it like something that you can definitely see like a future movie happening. And it’s one that I’m very excited to see happen because you know, you can harp on Spider Man three all you want, but that black suit. I loved that. I loved that costume design.

Josué Cardona 16:38
Got it? Okay, okay. So kind of the darker side, getting tapped into seeing it play out. Getting it. Right, so so he doesn’t get to. I mean, he would have killed during goblin. If, if Tobey Maguire hadn’t stepped in. And and so you’re

Lara Taylor 16:58
peter Parker, Peter Parker two

Josué Cardona 17:00
one, two. No, no, that’s right. Tobey’s two Garfield, three. Forgot forget. That’s so funny, Ah, got it. Got it. Got it, too. So. So is that something that is like that you’ve been thinking about that? Like? Okay, we’re gonna see that, like, in the future, then that side of him that, that the darker side and venom will tap into it?

Marc Cuiriz 17:28
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I also, I also see it as like a big intense moment of growth for him. And I think, because I remember, you know, also what I was texting was that I felt like this movie brought spider man back to his roots. And that more so plays in towards the end. But I think that that moment with may really sort of solidified just kind of what Peter Parker is all about. And what the what ultimately, you know, this is what leads to his ultimate choice in his decision in what he does to try to fix everything, and willing to live with that and accept that as sort of something that has to happen.

Josué Cardona 18:09
So, so this is, this is where my, my feelings about it. Start, this is where I need to process. Right? So I was very surprised that May died. In, in part because because of the movies we’ve had so far, um, he has had moments where he’s had to overcome things and he’s had challenges and he’s shown to be a hero. A great hero. And, and that it felt it definitely felt like the biggest it was like the biggest shock, right? The biggest blow that you could have possibly done to him. And and, and it was a blow to me, but what you said about like, oh, like everything like now. Now super. Now Spider Man is like, what he’s meant to be or what he’s supposed to be like, Spider Man is finally Spider Man. That idea that narrative infuriates me, it bothers me so much. It bothers me that that we had a Peter Parker that was different. Like even the The movie shows. We already had Tobey Maguire in three movies. He already had Andrew Garfield in two movies. We’ve had, we have decades and decades of different versions of Spider Man. Younger older, ultimate version is my spider man from like beginning to end, and very similar to to this version, right? Younger, things are a little bit different. And the idea that we have to like in order for him to Become what he’s supposed to be or like, fulfill his destiny or become like a real spider man. He had to lose everything, starting with May. And then literally like at the end, he has nothing. And I just felt so sad, I still feel so sad. I feel so sad that all of those sacrifices had to happen. For him to and it feels like for him to to be this character. A different version of the character, then then then what he already was, and be more like, traditional. I’ve thought about this a lot, but I hate the idea that he had to lose everything to become, supposedly this best version, which I don’t I don’t necessarily think that, you know, this is the the best or better version, we may get the best Spider Man movies ever now, right in the future. But it very much like. I mean, it doesn’t retcon so much the things that have happened before in the sense that they happened to him. And we know that they happened, it kind of retcon the world. But it changes the character completely moving forward. There’s no he can’t tap into the mentors that he had and the friendships that he had the relationships that he had. And I feel so I don’t know what I’m projecting here.

Lara Taylor 21:30
it feels like he’s the Tobey Maguire. Spider Man now, right who had the he didn’t have I mean, he had MJ but like and Harry, but like, cheap ass apartment in New York.

Josué Cardona 21:44
But that’s that’s the comic book Spider Man. Right? For that’s that’s, I mean, that is. Sure. That’s classic Spider Man. But like that spider man didn’t have anything to begin with. Like this spider man. We, we gave it to him. And then we took it all away. And oh, and the fact that people were like, happy about that about that. Is I find that so upsetting. I find it so upsetting this idea of of all the sacrifices having to to happen for for this for this version to exist? I don’t know, at the end. Like it was such a strange roller coaster. Because from the moment that that may died. It was like, okay, he’s just losing stuff over and over and over. And we get all these great moments with all the other spider men but at the end, I was just I was just depressed. I just so sad. I was like this kids out there alone. And they they they go through the thing of showing him trying to meet with all the people. And like, oh and happy doesn’t remember him and like nobody remembers them. It’s just Oh, it just it hurt. It hurt so much. Yeah,

Marc Cuiriz 22:59
I have words. But, Lara

Josué Cardona 23:01
yeah, yeah. Yeah. go for it.

Lara Taylor 23:03
I mean, I, I agree with you that maybe he didn’t need to lose everything, right? We’ve torn this from him. But the loss of May gives us a moment that I think is beautiful. And it’s interesting. When Nina when I told Nina that you wanted to do this episode, she she and I were both like, so I can talk about my dead mother again, like, because that’s basically why I was sobbing through this movie. But there’s been this concept of the moment afterward with the three Spider Mens. And then each going through their own loss. This movie shows like positive masculinity and vulnerability in a way like awkwardness around it, but also like the realness of it. And I think it’s been interesting to watch that. And I’ve had so many people, a friend of mine said that in the movie theater where he was, there was a woman behind him clapping and saying yes, positive masculinity when they’re like, talking to each other and supporting each other and like, having those moments I when I described it to Nina, I sent it was like, an emotional version of the meme where they’re all pointing at each other. Like literally like I see you. I see you. I see the loss that you’ve been through. It’s hard and without the trifecta of Ben. Gwen and may you wouldn’t have that moment it wouldn’t have been as powerful

Lara Taylor 23:03
so that scene right where they come to help him Yes, I agree. It’s it’s a it’s it’s I mean, it freakin movie is great. That scene it kind of it presents this or to me, right? It seems to frame that Oh, may just hold you right now. That great power with great power comes great responsibility. That’s our portion just

Lara Taylor 25:12
said that I was like, mmmm

Josué Cardona 25:13
but like that’s our that’s our origin point right and then that’s our like our mantra. That’s what guides us

Lara Taylor 25:21
so he hasn’t been apparently he hasn’t been a hero until now.

Josué Cardona 25:24
Well, that’s part of what bothers me. Yeah. Cuz it’s like, Oh, your story starts now. You just this is your fifth movie, but this is your story starts now. And, and, I mean, he talks about like, like, I fought I fought the vulture I fought purple giant purple guy. You know, Mr. Stark helped me like go

Lara Taylor 25:46
I wanted to go to space.

Josué Cardona 25:47
Yeah, space, I did all these things, right? Like he’s, he’s already

Lara Taylor 25:50
the opposite of like, when we talk about comic book, progression, like you start at the friendly neighborhood kind of stuff, and work your way up. And once things go cosmic, it’s like and time bending, and all of that. It gets way out there. And there’s a progression and you can’t go back almost. And like, he’s been there.

Josué Cardona 26:08
Yeah. But But like, Tony Stark was his Uncle Ben, you know, like, he was he was his mentor.

Lara Taylor 26:14
I mean, he also had his Uncle Ben, too. But right, and we just never saw that

Josué Cardona 26:19
we never saw him lose his parents. We never saw him lose Uncle Ben. Right. But we did see him build a relationship with with Tony. And and lose it completely. Right. And I mean, everybody lost, you know, Tony Stark, but having that that. That was his mentor. That was that was the person that he was learning from. So he had this idea. Again, I don’t know so much a father figure, but definitely a mentor already. Someone who, even and happy says that at the end, right? It’s like, oh, like, it’s not just may’s ideas and learnings that you’re going to carry forward. It’s Iron Man’s too write like this, this version of spider man is still built off of off of both of those things. And like, it’s not like he was a bad kid before. You know. And even even when he disagreed with may, he was he was just agreeing with strange, who, I mean, was, we could argue whether or not he was right or wrong. Right, because they didn’t show a death count, but I’m sure a lot of people got hurt, because, you know, nobody pressed that button, you know, for an hour and a half in the movie. And, and I get it, I love the I love the, I don’t know, that idea that like, we can do better, right? We can do better. And sure there’s a cost and we’re gonna we’re gonna do that, or we’re gonna do better. And, and I saw someone talking about this, right where it was like, it’s such a Spider Man thing, right? Then like the solution, the easy solution was literally super easy. It was literally just press a button, they could have pressed the button at any moment,

Lara Taylor 28:06
they were gonna die.

Josué Cardona 28:07
And they would have and they would have disappeared, they’ve already died. Like it wouldn’t. Ultimately, in this world, they wouldn’t have mattered. But there was a chance to do something better. You know? And, and, and, and he was, he was on board. He like he was already on board to do that. And it wasn’t he didn’t like, he didn’t struggle with that. Until may died. Right? Because before then he was all in he was helping them out. Like we get that hilarious. You know, they’re all walking into happies apartment, you know, like, he was already convinced. It’s not like he needed the additional the additional trauma to like solidify, you know, that the right thing is worth doing. It’s like, like, I just he had to suffer so much. and lose So much. I’m bringing it back to my feelings but but I believe you you were you were focusing on the positive masculinity which is which is which was definitely I think Andrew Garfield when he said, you know, like, i always wanted Brothers? Right? It was like that thing like spider man tends to be or can be right in the sort of the can be. He’s very he is very alone. Right? Which again, I don’t necessarily like that this version of Spider Man is now completely alone. And and but, but having them be able to to help each other out and that way and see that the that they’re not alone is is awesome. Although into the spider verse did that very well. Also.

Lara Taylor 29:48
Well, and this spider man Tom Holland Spider Man. Ultimately it was his choice to be alone, right? Both MJ and Ned said please tell us Who you are, remind us promise me, you’re going to remind us. And he walks away to protect them, which I have mixed feelings about. But

Josué Cardona 30:12
go ahead. Well,

Lara Taylor 30:13
I just on the one hand, like I understand wanting to give them what they want MIT, they seem happy. But is it real, because they don’t remember him. They don’t remember the life they had with him that they were bought into. And they were like, I want to do this, I want to be with you. I want to be your friend. I want to be your guy in the chair and your partner in crime and like, do all of this together. And he took away his own support from him.

Josué Cardona 30:46
And I mean, there was there was, you know, that clear moment where she shows the the bandaid on his on her forehead, and he’s like, You got hurt because of me. So,

Lara Taylor 30:57
people get hurt, because people all the time.

Josué Cardona 30:59
It’s true

Marc Cuiriz 31:00
that’s facts.

Josué Cardona 31:01
It’s true

Lara Taylor 31:02
emotionally and physically.

Josué Cardona 31:04
It’s true. Yeah. So

Lara Taylor 31:08
it’s taking away their agency.

Josué Cardona 31:11
He Mm hmm. I could debate we get Hmm. I mean, that there’s a part earlier when he’s when he’s talking to Dr. Strange, and he says, he’s like, no, please don’t make aunt may forget. I don’t know if I can go through that again. Right. It’s like it took a long time for him to have his best friend and like, it’s true. Hmm. Did he take their agency?

Lara Taylor 31:48
In the beginning in the beginning of the whole movie is about him trying to take away people’s agency. Make them forget that they ever knew it was me. I’m casting magic spells to make them forget. That is literally taking away people’s agency.

Josué Cardona 32:08
Yeah, i guess he was. Yeah, yeah.

Lara Taylor 32:12
He’s a stupid teenager. Well, meaning, uh,

Marc Cuiriz 32:16
I think this isn’t one of those instances where, you know, Spider Man has always been kind of seen as like a hero that kinda always has to sacrifice something. And this is kind of drawing back into kind of what where you are getting mega espresso depresso Josué the fact that he had to lose basically everything. But, you know, when I think back on Spider Man, I mean, yeah, I grew up with Tobey Maguire. So like, my original idea of Spider Man was one that was that almost had a sacrifice, what was the best for him for the sake of other people, whether it’s those that are close to him, like Aunt May or MJ, or it’s, you know, the people that he’s just trying to save, it’s just, you know, the, you know, New Yorkers and the citizens or regular citizens, you know, he’s willing to sacrifice all of those things for himself, because he knows that he can’t have the best of both worlds. And then we have take a look at at Tom Holland and his spider man. And this is one where for the most part, he’s had the luxury of enjoying the best of both worlds, he had the luxury of having those he cared about know who he was, know his secret, and be all on board and be supportive of him, while keeping himself basically hidden from the rest of the world. And it was only in in his attempt to try and keep the best of both worlds. Did he realize that it’s something that wasn’t gonna isn’t feasibly possible, he realized that strange, was right, you know, and that he’s trying to live to different he’s basically trying to have his cake and eat it too. And that’s not how the world works. For a lot of people, it’s really hard for a lot of people I will say, for a lot of, it doesn’t it’s not for everybody,

Josué Cardona 34:06
so it doesn’t have to that doesn’t have to be the story. You know, it doesn’t. It doesn’t have to be that

Lara Taylor 34:11
you don’t have to sacrifice yourself for for everybody,

Josué Cardona 34:14
or, you don’t have to lose everything.

Marc Cuiriz 34:16
And I do agree to an extent I do. I do agree. And I also had some mixed feelings towards the end too, with with MJ and Ned with the idea of losing them as well, but at the same time, like again, I think this was him sort of having his Tony Stark moment at the end of endgame where he was willing to sacrifice because he knew what had to be done for the greater good at that point in time. There was no way that he could have strange say, Hey, do the spell again. And only keep MJ and Ned that know my secret and have everybody else in the world forget like there was no way that would happen he it was kind of an all or nothing thing and he was willing to have that Tony Stark moment of

Josué Cardona 34:56
Yeah, but tony stark got off easy. i don’t feel bad for Tony stark after he died?

Marc Cuiriz 35:01
No, of course not. Because we know that this is this isn’t him dying, this is just him being forgotten, essentially. And yeah, it really does suck the fact that he does have to lose everything in order to get to the the quote unquote, you know, friendly neighborhood Spider Man aspect of things. And again, you know, like, yeah, he guys are saying like when he tries to go and, you know, fulfill his promise of reminding them. And he sees that like, Well, you see, that’s also kind of my fault. Also, I see how happy you guys are because you guys are about to go off to college. And if I remind you, you guys might not want to go. Because I can’t go to MIT because I am. Nobody knows I don’t exist to the world. And I know on a risk, you guys making the choice of sacrificing your futures, to stay with me. So and this is one of the things we’re you know, Lara was saying about trying to take away their agency of, so I’m going to make the decision for you. And I’m not going to say anything. However, I also do see this as a moment of a possible second chance, like there’s a now a chance where he can really get to know MJ for who she is and really build that connection. Because I mean, you see, like, right off the bat, you can tell that she’s sort of sensing some sort of connection between both of them,

Josué Cardona 36:21
because he’s cheating because that’s because he’s

Lara Taylor 36:23
he couldn’t just walk away

Josué Cardona 36:25
Because he doesn’t know but yeah, he has insider information. He like said something that she likes to say already. That’s somebody and then grin. Yeah, you like that’s your favorite color, too?

Marc Cuiriz 36:37
Yeah, granted. Yes, I know, he has a bit of a cheat sheet. He has the insider knowledge of things. But like, I feel like he’s trying to do that to try to build a more a bit try to build the relationship now but having her just know him as regular Peter Parker not

Lara Taylor 36:54
I don’t think he’s gonna go back. I don’t think he’s gonna go back.

Josué Cardona 36:56
I think that he would say, I think it would be so the, how terrible would it be? Like, you have all that information on that past? And it’s basically like, you know, like, she’s an amnesiac. Right? It’s like, she doesn’t remember nothing that he says is going to bring back her memory. So he has to start over. But he has all of these past memories, like the pain of that I imagine would be so terrible. Like, I don’t, I don’t. Yeah, that’s why that’s why the whole agency thing I’m like, I don’t know. It’s a different person at this point. Like, there’s no way that he could

Lara Taylor 37:31
present information just like he was going to. I’m Peter Parker. This was our relationship. I know that sounds weird. But they live in a world where even though they don’t know who Peter Parker is, weird shit happens all the time. Aliens did still come and attack New York and then snap and half the people disappeared and then open another snap and they’re back. Like, wierd shit happens

Josué Cardona 37:54
he’s still in highschool. Like, he’s, it’s Oh, yeah. I mean,

Lara Taylor 37:58
so are so is eventually we get Miss Marvel. So is like, we’re going to high school is I know, it’s hard. But like, he’s also almost an adult. He’s about to go off to school.

Josué Cardona 38:13
I don’t know,

Lara Taylor 38:13
he could just present the information and let them decide whether they think he’s crazy or not.

Josué Cardona 38:19
It’s again, I mean, we’re arguing hypotheticals here, but I don’t I don’t blame him for not pushing at that moment. Anyway. And I look, I acknowledge, okay, that this is more than likely. Okay. Just setting up the next time that I’m going to cry like a baby, which is in the third Spider Man movie where everybody remembers and aunt may comes back

Lara Taylor 38:43
this is the third Spider Man movie,

Josué Cardona 38:45
the third of the of the next trilogy, I mean, of the next of the next trilogy, right? And then everybody remembers, and, and, and they, they, they, they merge and like, people come back. Miles Morales has lost his mom. And then like, after Secret Wars, everything came back and like that his mom is there is that is there. And like, you know, and he’s he’s this type of stuff happens. And I mean, it literally happened in endgame. Right. Like we lost half of the population and they came back and that moment when they come back still goosebumps every time I watch every time I watch that. Yeah, it’s it’s a there’s definitely pay off there. So I’m guessing that will eventually happen. Where we’ll get a lot of this stuff back and and we’ll feel like we earned it. But yeah, yeah. I just I just feel so Ah, why did he have to suffer so much? And I think I think that’s the part that I struggle with, like why there’s there’s is it really is it true that you have to sacrifice everything?

Lara Taylor 39:51
Well, and that’s another that’s another theme that I think a lot of people talk about in superhero stories do they have To sacrifice to be a hero, do you have to go through something horrible to want to do good things and help people?

Josué Cardona 40:08
And we prove that he didn’t

Lara Taylor 40:09
helps but you don’t have to.

Josué Cardona 40:12
And this spider man reprove that you don’t have to be I mean, I mean the sacrifices sure consequences. Sure. But this feels so cruel. So and again because he is a kid, like at the end, like you see, like, he’s got this box. He’s living alone in this place. He’s got his GED book. You know, he’s like, I’m, nobody remembers me. I didn’t even go to school. Technically, you know? Um, and, yeah, but yeah, well, I mean, we jumped right to the part where I was all depressed about it. Lara, is there is there, like a particular thing that you wanted to discuss about them that you think would be important, it’s got some deeper themes there.

Lara Taylor 40:55
I also like the idea of, like, I don’t know if I, I still don’t know how I feel about how it plays out in the movie, but the idea of fixing them quote, unquote, like helping the villains. If I can only do this thing, they wouldn’t be this way. And in life, like we can’t fix other people, we can’t we can make things easier for them. We can present information, give them options, but we can’t make them make the choices. And in this movie, once again, taking away agency and making them make choices. Some of the villains wanted to be fixed, and some of them didn’t, you know. But I liked the idea of redeeming them and making the taking away the thing that got in the way and turn them into something like all of them were trying to fix a problem in their lives. And it fucked them up.

Josué Cardona 41:53
that’s true. Even even what was Osborne’s? Why did I forgot why he

Lara Taylor 41:59
had like a Didn’t he have like a debilitating like he?

Marc Cuiriz 42:02
No, he was trying to perfect the super soldier serum. Essentially. He was about to get voted out of his own company by the by the board. So yeah, to save his own skin. He became the first human test subject for a serum and it basically just drove him crazy.

Josué Cardona 42:20
So hubris, what got him. Yeah. Okay.

Lara Taylor 42:23
Yeah, he was still trying to fix the problem, but it was a little more of it was

Marc Cuiriz 42:28
little self-centered

Josué Cardona 42:28
dollars to cents problem. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah,

Lara Taylor 42:32
I mean, and then electro was Peter Parker didn’t want to come to my birthday party essentially.

Marc Cuiriz 42:39
Well, and that I think it was also like he was just one of those guys that everyone kicked around he was that company. Yeah. And then he and then he just, you know, had an unfortunate on the job accident and did not get workers comp for it.

Josué Cardona 42:54
Yeah, yeah.

Lara Taylor 42:55
Instead he tried to kill everybody.

Marc Cuiriz 42:57
Yep, basically.

Lara Taylor 42:59
Yeah, that’s a that’s a lesson to everyone give workers comp.

Josué Cardona 43:04
Also, I forgot that the lizard

Lara Taylor 43:08
I forgot already.

Josué Cardona 43:11
Like in the movie. Yep. He had already changed back at the end. Right. Like he changed back and his version of the movie. Yeah, so remember, what happened? Right to like, what did he do after that? Did all the

Lara Taylor 43:24
rest of the rest of them were about to die when that happened?

Marc Cuiriz 43:28
And so what what, what I gather is that all these all the villains were pop were pulled out of their timeline at the moment when they were about to A, die or B, be cured. And I only say cured like in the lizard sense. Really. Everyone else like the goblin was about to die. Or that and the Sandman? Yeah, cuz just, you know, he just kind of dusted off into the sunset.

Josué Cardona 43:55
Yeah.

Marc Cuiriz 43:57
But aside from that, everybody else was just like, yeah, no, I was literally about to die. And then all of a sudden I’m here, which is this is where also the idea of like fixing them didn’t really make a whole lot of sense to me, because at the end of the day,

Lara Taylor 44:11
they’re gonna go back and die.

Marc Cuiriz 44:13
Exactly like everything they did just didn’t really matter.

Josué Cardona 44:17
Because like Doc Ock I mean, he came to at the end and say and like, fixed his own problem like,

Marc Cuiriz 44:23
right yeah, and yeah, well, Doc and Doc Ock, he sacrificed himself for it. But the goblin he still stabs and he’s still Yeah,

Josué Cardona 44:31
yeah, he was he Yeah, it was again. Hubris like I got you Yeah.

Marc Cuiriz 44:36
electro doesn’t doesn’t have any sudden change of hearts. He just gets overloaded and explodes

Josué Cardona 44:43
the fact the fact that I mean, now, I don’t I don’t want to criticize this part of the movie. I think it’s valid, right? Where it kind of doesn’t make sense when

Lara Taylor 44:53
I said I don’t I don’t understand the way it played out. But,

Josué Cardona 44:58
but the deeper we go into that I mean, then it was all for Peters benefit, right? Because ultimately, however it goes it goes back like the version of Toby and Andrew that actually are at that moment are probably still gonna end up doing something to you they’re

Lara Taylor 45:17
in the middle of like stabbing them or yeah middle of like, they’re all gonna die.

Josué Cardona 45:23
Yeah yeah like it’s hard right so it’s really for the benefit or I guess it’s for the benefit of the three Spider Men really

Marc Cuiriz 45:33
a chance to fix them the way they are initially in originally wanted to like they never wanted to harm any of them it’s just like in their worlds they were left without the choice which growing up was always something that kind of felt a little weird considering Spider Man’s always had the rule of like not killing and yet in almost all the movies all the villains end up dying in some way shape or form however

Lara Taylor 46:00
is that true? i think in the comics he might have.

Marc Cuiriz 46:03
I mean the key Gen he genuinely has the rule of not killing I mean I’m sure there’s there’s instances where he does but for the most part you know he’s one of those heroes where it’s like I’m not gonna kill anybody because that’s not don’t

Lara Taylor 46:16
don’t get Josué started.

Josué Cardona 46:17
There’s a whole episode I ranted about this okay about spider man about a man in the game and you’re like, oh, yeah, don’t kill anybody. You’re just like you’re beating them up, hanging them for hours, yeah. Don’t get me started

Lara Taylor 46:31
batman exploding buildings with like, yeah, missile, things like that. Yeah, no one dies.

Josué Cardona 46:36
So So now. I mean, I hadn’t thought about it this way. But like, Toby and Andrew get these amazing moments that are like capstones, to their, to their, to their stories. Right. And even even just that moment of, of Toby Spider Man, like, that moment with Doc Ock where it’s like. Like how you been like, I get to see you again. You know, like, I felt so horrible about what happened. And he’s like, how you doing kid? Like, you’re all grown up and he’s like, I’m trying to do better. It’s like, that moment is like, powerful for Tobey Maguire’s like future version of Spider Man. Again, not necessarily for doc ock and maybe also all these even if they’re fixed and they go back they were technically just be like variants, and then that’s a whole other conversation.

Marc Cuiriz 47:27
That’s a whole other Loki.

Josué Cardona 47:29
Loki conversation depending on when Loki happens in that?

Lara Taylor 47:31
Well, maybe, well, maybe they’re not variants. Maybe it’s part of the timeline like the No, because

Josué Cardona 47:35
if they go back that would branch that would make a branching timeline.

Marc Cuiriz 47:40
Let’s say both, let’s say hypothetically, that in those moments, each of the like for Garfield, and for Tobey, let’s say that those moments like they were they were all plucked out. It’s also them being plucked out at that moment. So they both left the timeline. So when they come back now it’s like, Oh, hey, let’s not do this instead, because of what we just experienced over there. Well,

Lara Taylor 48:01
but they come back later because Toby is older and says that he and MJ have it figured out and I think they’re married and probably have kids

Josué Cardona 48:09
and so is Andrew right Andrew definitely did their future version right?

Marc Cuiriz 48:12
You’re right, you’re right.

Josué Cardona 48:13
But when the villains called go back into that moment, let’s say that it does change right? We’re like, Yo, I’ve been fixed or norman was like, Hey, I don’t want to fight anymore. You’re not going to believe what just happened to me that would branch the timeline immediately and like we’d still the movies would still exist in one timeline and this would be a brand new timeline that would branch off but besides that,

Lara Taylor 48:33
but then they talk about how Steve Rogers goes back and then why isn’t that a problem? There’s that happen

Josué Cardona 48:40
there’s no I mean there’s no there’s no confirmation about about which version if we’re in the original MCU like exactly stuff don’t get me started what shields

Marc Cuiriz 48:53
the multiversal Theory and all this stuff is just so wild

Lara Taylor 48:56
I can’t even just talking about timeline look,

Josué Cardona 48:58
I got a Sharpie right here. Let me let me draw some Yeah. But but but so Tobey gets his moment and then of course Andrew Garfield Spider Man gets that moment he saves MJ. I mean, that is like cathartic for him right like yeah oh my god amazing right to see to see that like further off into the future he gets a second chance at saving someone in the same exact situation and it’s like it’s not his gwen he’s not able to do but he’s what that means to him amazing but Peter, Peter Holland tom holland loses everything sorry I went back to that but it just it just like it hurts more now.

Lara Taylor 49:42
But he got the catchphrase that with great power comes great responsibility

Josué Cardona 49:46
it’s not a catchphrase.

Marc Cuiriz 49:48
We also get may’s phrase of if you help someone you help everyone.

Josué Cardona 49:53
Look it’s it’s it’s all good stuff.

Lara Taylor 49:58
But Peter is alone and gets nothing.

Josué Cardona 50:01
I can’t I mean, sure kid might be a better hero now.

Marc Cuiriz 50:05
He gets a new suit.

Josué Cardona 50:06
he gets a new suit.

Lara Taylor 50:09
Yeah, he gets a hand sewn suit on a sewing machine.

Josué Cardona 50:13
I know. They Oh, he’s got the classic suit like that he’s really spider man. Get out of here with that. I don’t. I don’t. I don’t. I don’t like it. I don’t like it. I like the suit. I like the whole thing. I like the idea. I’m like, I’ll be there opening night for the next Spider Man. But I just I just so sad for him. But again, all of those moments, the way they set those things up. And I think each of the villains also right, like they have like, like you were saying Lara like, they each have something like they they they have these these versions of their stories. Right? Where like, is it? Do they want to get better? Right, like, like you talked about?

Lara Taylor 50:52
Osborn seems like he wants to get better.

Josué Cardona 50:55
Absolutely.

Lara Taylor 50:56
I mean, and that’s that was like a moment that it’s like someone with like, Alzheimer’s or something. He just doesn’t know what’s going on. Yeah, he’s kind of lost. And then there’s doc ock who’s like, I don’t want your help. But ah,

Josué Cardona 51:09
yes and no, right. Like, there’s

Marc Cuiriz 51:11
I feel like he did

Lara Taylor 51:12
when gets the help. He wants it. Yeah,

Marc Cuiriz 51:15
he was he was he’s like a tsundere. You know, he wanted to help. They didn’t actually want the help. You know, you could

Josué Cardona 51:20
see once he was like, Oh, wait, like, what’s happened?

Lara Taylor 51:22
the Tentacles were what was control him?

Josué Cardona 51:24
Yeah. And he’s arguing with them. And it’s like, oh, wait, he’s not okay. The listeners like he didn’t care right? Those are just like, This is gonna be fun.

Lara Taylor 51:34
And electro did not

Josué Cardona 51:35
Electro.

Lara Taylor 51:37
He was looking different. And then he’s like, Nah, I’m good. I want this arc reactor. It

Josué Cardona 51:42
was the best version of himself, right? Like literally even physically, right? It’s like, I’ve never, like it fixed everything. like. All the way they present him in the movie, right? Where he’s, like, ugly, and you know, like, stutters and like, all this stuff, right? He’s, like, awkward, like, he’s completely all that is gone. Right? He’s been transformed. So to him. He’s like, the best version of himself that he’s ever been. And so he doesn’t want to lose that. Plus, like the power feels good. Right. And he was he was talking about he’s like, that’s a lot of power. Um, that’s just the way I’m wired now. And so that’ll be that’ll be fantastic. Um, so yeah, so that was a Sandman was pretty consistent. He’s like, I just wanted my daughter get me home, get me home. That was I still think they balanced that. Well, like, everybody had a completely different motivation for for being there and doing what Lotsof Yeah. Yeah. Anything, anything? Anything else? Like big? I mean, there’s tons of stuff to talk about in the movie, but, uh, other like, really big pieces of the film that are things that happened that you know, thematically that people might resonate with people or my people feel a certain way Yes.

Marc Cuiriz 53:11
Yeah, I mean, kind of going back a little bit to the positive masculinity thing. I think it was I think it was really nice because like I mentioned earlier how they had a lot of these like meta jokes kind of that Andrew Garfield expense. And like, then you kind of see it like, you see like, oh, it really does like kind of affect him and like he really does like he’s really really hard on himself. He’s a lot more of a that like, more of a self destructive Peter for he’s really, really hard on himself and takes it and it you know, and Tom and Tobey are both like, no, like, you’re, you’re still amazing. Like,

Josué Cardona 53:44
say it, say you’re amazing say it

Lara Taylor 53:46
cuz your the amazing spider man yeah.

Marc Cuiriz 53:50
Exactly. And all because it’s like, oh, yeah, I was in space. And I was part of the Avengers. And it’s like, oh, I fought an alien goo monster. You know, it’s all these things. And he’s like, Oh, well, I just fought a Russian mobster and a rhinoceros suit like

Josué Cardona 54:09
you know, what’s positive masculinity? A man who has a strong relationships and accepts the support of his friends and family and mentors. Yeah, yeah. Why don’t we take that away? Now he’s just all alone and doesn’t need anybody’s help. And now he’s a real man

Lara Taylor 54:34
he’s angry.

Josué Cardona 54:37
Oh, yeah,

Lara Taylor 54:37
I think I think that the darkness piece I think that it he had some growth at the end with Tobey and Andrew Garfield like after the moment where he almost killed Green Goblin. But

Josué Cardona 54:53
yeah,

Marc Cuiriz 54:54
yeah. And then you know, that kind of moments like you’re in a lot of pain, aren’t you? Yeah, yeah i am.

Josué Cardona 55:00
There’s, there’s this there’s this like double standard with some of these heroes where and I get it right like what spider man there are parts of spider man that you don’t want to mess with? And one of them is, is that right? Like we can’t especially again he’s a kid right? Like we don’t want him to, to, to have this like revenge and kill this guy right now although by count how many Shatari that they they all kill anyway, the but but like most of the other heroes they’re just like shooting people left and right like literally to just like, you know not even I’m not even gonna count I’m not even to count how many murders Steve Rogers committed with his shield and his fists. I’m sorry, just like the people he shot alone with guns and all these movies, right? It’s like we don’t we don’t bat an eye and sure that’s like, they’re not like meaningful, necessarily meaningful characters in the same sense. But that’s, that’s something that I always find. I find interesting in, in the superhero discussions in general, where this is very similar to that to the Batman thing, right? Like batman. It’s like, he’s, he doesn’t kill, right? Like, that’s still gone. He doesn’t use guns, he doesn’t kill. That’s the one thing that he’ll never do. And that’s like, what defines him he

Lara Taylor 56:25
beats the crap out of people and probably gives them traumatic brain injuries and they live in comas or whatever

Marc Cuiriz 56:33
he’s, he’s, he’s the kind of guy who wears like, he won’t kill but he’s gonna cause enough injuries that if you happen to die as a result of injuries, that’s I didn’t technically kill you died or something else.

Josué Cardona 56:46
But what I’m saying is that there’s this code there, right that like that defines the character. But if like, you’re cool with killing, like, go for it, you know, it’s all good. I love that. I love the the I forget what the number is of how many millions of people were on the Death Star when Luke blew it up.

Lara Taylor 57:09
They talk there’s but that’s a big theme in a lot of books. The last stars book by Claudia Gray talks about people who were had friends on the Death Star and what it was like and how the rebels were monsters because they killed that many people. Yeah, because they don’t know what’s actually going on.

Josué Cardona 57:29
Yeah, but it’s that idea of like that murder that killing right? The argument with with Batman and the Joker like if he would just kill the Joker years ago. How many lives have you had saved? Right? but no I’ve got this code. I can’t do it.

Lara Taylor 57:47
I can say head press the button. How many people would have not gotten hurt? We know of at least one

Josué Cardona 57:54
who wouldn’t have died?

Lara Taylor 57:55
Who wouldn’t have died?

Josué Cardona 57:56
And yeah, I mean, I would have been hurt. Emotionally. They would have just press the button.

Marc Cuiriz 58:02
Yeah, you remember MJ? She’s like, if I don’t hear anything from you in like an hour or so I’m pushing the button. And you would think that the moment they heard something on the news of like, hey, yeah, there was this huge ass fight and the explosion at this, you know, apartment complex.

Lara Taylor 58:15
Like, she’s like, I’m pushing the button. And then Ned’s like, no, no, no, wait.

Josué Cardona 58:20
He did sparkles.

Marc Cuiriz 58:22
Sparkles. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 58:24
I mean, I get that though. Like, spider man is inspirational, right. Like he was inspired by by what he said. And then so and he inspired MJ and Ned until like, they’re on board. It’s like we can do this. Like as soon as as Dr. Strange comes through, mate. He’s like, What is going on? And MJ says it’s working. Like Peters plan is working. He’s actually curing them. Right? He’s fixing curing them.

Lara Taylor 58:54
The villains were the ones that kept using the word fix. I don’t need it. Yeah, fix Yeah,

Josué Cardona 58:58
no. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, that’s, that’s that’s really interesting. I was Yeah, I like that. You’ve brought up that idea. So many times of like, taking away people’s agency, because that’s, that’s really damn, I think

Lara Taylor 59:13
that’s that’s the whole fucking movie.

Josué Cardona 59:15
That’s the theme in the movie. It’s It’s like

Lara Taylor 59:19
taking away people’s choice.

Josué Cardona 59:21
Yeah. Yeah. Even Even I mean, even may does that. You know me. I don’t know. Feel free to argue with me. Right? But Peter had made up his mind. He’s like,

Lara Taylor 59:33
and then she’s like, No, we’re not doing this. Yeah,

Josué Cardona 59:36
she’s like, actually, you know, it’s like what I’m doing is good but what you’re doing is more good. So sure, I’ll do that. Right it’s like nobody nobody let anybody

Lara Taylor 59:48
even dr. strange didn’t let him have a choice.

Josué Cardona 59:52
And a book Peter didn’t let strange push the button like like every like.

Lara Taylor 59:57
Peter took away strangers choice by locking him away. It his mirror World.

Josué Cardona 1:00:03
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, ultimately, right? Like, you could view this and I would accept this argument from anybody, where it’s like the lesson here for Peter is like, this was the cost of you of you messing like you messed up and he says it right. He’s like, this is this is a problem that I have to fix, like, all these things happen. And it got it kept getting worse and worse and worse. And so ultimately, these are like the consequences of his actions. Which is just true, but like, yeah, that whole thing of like taking away people’s agency is fascinating. Yeah, I think that’s the theme of the movie. I hadn’t thought about it that way. But I think that’s it. The idea of like, yeah, yeah. Hmm. I didn’t Yeah, I mean, what a fun movie but also what the

Lara Taylor 1:00:56
traumatizing

Josué Cardona 1:00:59
the right thing, like wow, wait a minute. Lots of lots of cheering lots of ah, again, those moments when when the other spider men come in. That’s like, it’s unreal. I still can’t believe it happened. And I was expecting it to happen. I still can’t believe it happened.

Marc Cuiriz 1:01:18
I know. It was. It was it was like the the like the most elated I felt. I made the joke that it cured my depression. I no longer hate winter. serotonin levels are officially at the peak levels.

Josué Cardona 1:01:36
I get into the spider verse did this really well. But the characters really, we didn’t know them. Like they were all new to us in that movie, including miles, like that version of miles are completely new to us.

Lara Taylor 1:01:46
Yeah.

Josué Cardona 1:01:47
And here, it’s like, no, we know this. We know all three versions of these Spider Man. From from different points. actually, there’s a there’s a comic book called Spider Man. Which so the story of Miles Morales which also I love that joke. I love that joke. Of like, when when electro is like, Oh, he’s like what happened? It’s like, oh, you’re from Queens. You help poor people? Like I just I always thought you were black. I’m surprised you weren’t is it just kind of your black spider man somewhere in the in the comics, right. So in the Ultimate Universe, the the spider man. And then he died. And shortly after he died, Miles Morales has become spider man. But he never gets to meet the original spider man before he becomes Spider Man. He kind of it’s a really cool story how that all happens, but like, and it’s tragic how spider man dies, but it’s very much. I mean, it’s a lot like this, like he sacrificed himself but he died in the process and the ultimate version. And so there is there are some multiverse shenanigans that happen. And the comics were Miles Morales goes from what’s the number? I forgot I forgot the number of their universe and goes to 616. Where? I don’t know it’s the other way around. Peter Parker from 616 goes to ends up in the Ultimate Universe.

Marc Cuiriz 1:03:13
You know, it’s funny is actually I just, I actually just read this whole comic

Josué Cardona 1:03:17
Spider Man you read Spider Man? Yeah. weeks ago, Peter Parker. Right. Peter Parker goes from 616 to the ultimate. Yeah, right. Yeah. And so and for miles, it’s a huge moment because he gets to meet a Peter Parker and it’s a more experienced Spider Man. Which he never got to meet because he started basically all alone. Doing this with with just Ganke which is like, very much, but what Ned was based on? Yeah. And so

Lara Taylor 1:03:48
I then right down to the Lola. Lola.

Josué Cardona 1:03:51
Yeah. And it’s and it’s a it’s an awesome story that really plays with that idea of learning from someone who, who has more experience and learning from someone you know, newer and I don’t I don’t know that that story. It does it. It does it. Really, really well. I’m also so to see that happen here was was fun. I think that’s where I was going. I kind of lost the thread at some point because I got excited when you said you read it recently too, because it’s a really good. It’s a it’s been this right, Ben, this is the one who writes Yeah.

Marc Cuiriz 1:04:27
Yeah, my fiance bought it for one of her coworkers. You know, sadly, not for me, but you know, it’s fine. bought it from under him because, you know, something was going on with him. So she wanted to do this for him. And she’s like, Well, do you want to read it before I give it to him? Just like she was like, just don’t mess up the comic too much. You can read it and I was like, I guess I’ll read it then you’re

Lara Taylor 1:04:51
like opening the book just enough that it doesn’t crease the binding

Marc Cuiriz 1:04:56
That’s basically what I did.

Lara Taylor 1:04:57
Yeah, you’re like I can read in the in I

Marc Cuiriz 1:05:01
just like to get my get my flashlight on just like Alright hold on hold on all right I got it

Josué Cardona 1:05:09
ah yeah um yeah I mean it’s it’s great i mean the next Spider Man game is going to be I mean it’s gonna dive even deeper into that right like the the miles morales game already does that a lot where we have that relationship between two Spider Man and it’s it’s great and so to tap into to it this way was was a lot of fun unbelievable

Lara Taylor 1:05:31
I don’t want another Spider Man movie though I want to Spider Gwen movie.

Josué Cardona 1:05:36
you want Spider Gwen movie?

Lara Taylor 1:05:38
Miles Morales Spider Man

Josué Cardona 1:05:40
Also fun fact Hailee Steinfeld. Steinfeld, right.

Lara Taylor 1:05:46
Yeah, Steinfeld

Josué Cardona 1:05:48
does the voice of Spider Woman slash spider gwen on into the spider verse as she plays Kate bishop in

Lara Taylor 1:05:55
Yep. Yep.

Marc Cuiriz 1:05:59
No I

Josué Cardona 1:06:00
Aaron Johnson is has been cast as playing the what’s the Spider Man villain? The Kraven the hunter Kraven is something right.

Marc Cuiriz 1:06:12
Yes. And that there is a Spider Man villain.

Josué Cardona 1:06:14
Yeah. So Aaron Johnson is going to play him and of course, he played Pietro on in The Avengers. That’s funny.

Marc Cuiriz 1:06:23
Oh, goody. Now, I just always think back to like that meme tweet was like so do I need to watch Spider Man’s 1231212? Again, before I can watch this one to understand it. And then I think back on like, well, you know, if you really want to get like to know like, the deeper like the intricacies of their jokes and like the the things that they’re making about it, or like even just like understanding where some of the iconic lines are coming from like, I’m somewhat of a scientist myself or like, it’s complicated. Like, I’m like, Yeah, you kind of do you kind of have to watch all those movies if you want to understand

Lara Taylor 1:06:59
and not just that

Josué Cardona 1:07:00
and the five movies with tom holland

Lara Taylor 1:07:02
the rest Exactly. Oh, yeah. Spider Man. So Spider Man. One, two and three. Spider Man. One Two. Amazing. Amazing Spider man went to

Marc Cuiriz 1:07:12
homecoming far from home. Civil

Josué Cardona 1:07:15
War Civil War

Lara Taylor 1:07:17
Infinity War endgame,

Marc Cuiriz 1:07:18
huh? Yeah, but yeah, I’m just like, Yeah, I mean, technically

Josué Cardona 1:07:24
you have to watch venom too to understand

Lara Taylor 1:07:27
credit post credit scene and if you want to understand the post post credit scene, you’ve got to watch wandavision.

Josué Cardona 1:07:34
Sorry, you also have to watch Daredevil

Marc Cuiriz 1:07:43
when he when he appeared the my the entire theater that I was in just erupted and cheers. Yeah, yeah.

Lara Taylor 1:07:50
Yeah. That was I saw it at the drive-in. But that was my car, which was me and Nina. Like, oh my god. I knew it was gonna happen.

Josué Cardona 1:07:59
I know. I know how. But like, how weird was it that we everything? There wasn’t?

Lara Taylor 1:08:04
I can’t wait. I hope that I mean, they brought him back. I’m hoping that he comes head to head with She Hulk in the courtroom.

Josué Cardona 1:08:14
Oh, yeah. I mean, I mean, we’ve already got I mean, no spoilers for Hawkeye but like we’ve got connections to other things happening and Hawkeye too I won’t spoil that. I guess. But you know, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s all connected. It’s all it’s all happening

Marc Cuiriz 1:08:27
in I totally have theories as to what the next at least what night the next two movies are going to be about the Spider Man movies. Yeah, the Spider Man movies. The next one’s like, I totally see a venom one like what that post credit scene like it’s something that like fix. I really feel like there’s something that they’re going to do.

Lara Taylor 1:08:45
And I don’t know Sony will let it go. And they gave everything they did was with Sony’s permission.

Josué Cardona 1:08:51
So exactly when the universe was opening, like, obviously at the end, right. And you see all these silhouettes of different characters, right? Yeah, all the characters that you see the ones that are like clearly visible apparently as far as as far as I’ve seen online, they’re all Sony, upcoming Sony or past Sony characters from Spider Man movies or that universe. So like the Kraven thing was like that it’s like scorpion he was in one of the end credits scenes like those characters they were all like that like I was like, Oh, is there any x men coming through and other stuff right like no it was I saw

Marc Cuiriz 1:09:31
you see a rhino in there.

Josué Cardona 1:09:32
Exactly right Rhino right. It was all Sony Spider Man stuff and I say Sony because like they’re the only like that they’re they gave their blessing right? Those are the characters that they

Marc Cuiriz 1:09:44
well I also totally feel like they’re gonna have a scorpion movie like you know the habit at homecoming. If you do drop Gargan in there and now you have J Jonah Jameson. And you know like with the origins of Scorpion with him trying to create a hero that would stop a minute instead creates A huge supervillain. I feel like that’s something that’s gonna come back because like,

Josué Cardona 1:10:05
but I don’t I don’t see it getting excited about seeing like classic Spider Man stories is what I’m is something that the cool thing about this spider man is that he has nothing about his story about his movies, nothing about his story at all in the MCU has been like it’s all been new, like it was all surprising, right? No nothing like there was no short they’re pulling pieces of things. Right. But it was such a completely different version of the of the of the character of the stories that to go and I mean, I guess they they could maybe they will.

Marc Cuiriz 1:10:42
I will say like I I’m not saying like it’s something like Oh yeah, I’m gonna call it now. But I think it’s definitely a theory because I mean, at the end of Homecoming, you hear him he’s like, Oh, so you know who the spite like who the spider is like, you gotta let like if you know, tell me because I’m interested in finding out who he is. So I can go after him. Probably because I’m sure he’s probably busted him off screen sometime at some point in time. And then, of course, Michael Keaton’s, like, well, if I knew who he was, he’d be dead. So and because Gargan never knew who he was. He owned his own, he obviously is only going to know Spider Man. So I feel like that’s still gonna, that opens up the avenue of like something that they can dive into, if that’s, you know, something they want to make a call back to like, I think it’s definitely a possibility that they will have a movie based on scorpion. plus it gets a little bit more, you know, Jay, Jonah Jameson and kind of like that whole ordeal of things. But I mean, it’s again, it’s a possibility. And I I would be I would be I don’t think I necessarily would be surprised that they did it. But I’d be I’d be interested to see like, what story they’d create from it.

Josué Cardona 1:11:51
I hadn’t thought about this. But I think that by basically resetting him in the MCU, it creates the perfect opportunity to actually to literally pull him from the MCU.

Lara Taylor 1:12:04
Which I think is what the plan might be. I think Tom Holland is done being Spider Man.

Josué Cardona 1:12:09
No, no, no, he signed. I mean,

Lara Taylor 1:12:13
I was they they’ve heard they’ve talked about him being a producer instead of an actor. And I guess possibly the there’s rumors that the announcement that he was doing another trilogy is premature? Yeah. I think because he’s not signed on to anything

Josué Cardona 1:12:29
yet. Yeah. My guess is that he’s that he is going to definitely do another few movies. But I wouldn’t be surprised if he leaves if they just like, everybody forgot him already. So let’s just literally pull him from the MCU. I would be okay with that. I’m okay.

Marc Cuiriz 1:12:47
Yeah. In terms of the MCU I’m okay with that, too. I’m fine with the next like the next three movies, if he were to be a part of them, then being their own standalone movies, not connected to the MCU at all. I mean, I would say very loose, actually, I would say very loosely tied, like you can you might they might hear some things about it, or like you would see some things that like that happened in his movies be affected, like affecting slightly, the MCU, just like in small subtle ways, but nothing that they like call attention to really?

Josué Cardona 1:12:47
No, no, I You can’t, I don’t think they can do that.

Marc Cuiriz 1:12:56
But I do feel like I feel like maybe the comment I would be it’d be something to really like look forward to if what they’re since I see what they’re doing. Like even with like, you know, their lineup, and they’re trying to introduce a lot of these younger things and probably eventually introduced the Young Avengers or something like that. We do actually get a Miles Morales, by one of his movies, you start slowly like dropping the hints of subtleties of introducing it and we get a unit, the MCU, so to speak, in this universe, we have, we can have the two spider men sort of coexist, but then we kind of shift that focus from Tom Holland to that, and then you kind of see him get interacting with that. And I guess it’s a way to kind of, I mean, it’s possible, but again, it’s a whole thing with Marvel and Sony. But it would be fun to see

Lara Taylor 1:14:09
that we would get a Miles Morales because we did get a scene with Prowler already.

Marc Cuiriz 1:14:14
Exactly.

Lara Taylor 1:14:16
And I don’t know Disney just signed an initiative to make sure that 50% of their actors and movies are from diverse populations as they put it. So who knows?

Marc Cuiriz 1:14:32
Yeah, if they were to make a Miles Morales movie, I would. I would be so happy.

Josué Cardona 1:14:40
There is Miles Morales movie. It’s called the into the spider verse. its amazing

Marc Cuiriz 1:14:43
mean, the live action and there’s a sequel across the spider verse and I’m here for it. I’m 1,000% here for it, but I thought I’d make a live action Miles Morales movie to

Josué Cardona 1:14:54
the three main characters of that movie as far as we can tell so far our miles Morales. Right? And Miguel O’Hara. Right and and Gwen Stacy. That’s a pretty, pretty good that’s pretty well that now we’re just geeking out about the future and I mean, I could I could argue a few different things but who knows what will happen? I think we touched on a lot of the biggest themes of of the movie definitely the way they affected us. Is there anything else Lara like? That you any other takeaways? Anything your clients have said so far about the movie? how it affected them? Nothing.

Lara Taylor 1:15:38
dead parents suck. And they played into this might open a can of worms, but they played into the women in refrigerators trope.

Josué Cardona 1:15:48
Yep. Yep, absolutely. This they did. Yes, they did. Yep. Yep. Again, you didn’t have to kill aunt may because you already you already lost tony stark. And then on top of everything, he lost everybody else. So um, yeah. No, it’s it’s it’s very sad. I’m curious. Please, if this movie also depressed you please let me know. Let me know the good things that you liked about it too. But if it made you sad, or if I ruined it for you now and made it sad for you, please let me know. I will continue to work through these feelings with my therapist in a couple of days. Any any final thoughts from you? Marc?

Marc Cuiriz 1:16:31
I’m I need to go see it again. That’s That’s it. I need to go watch this another four or five times? Yeah, like I did with endgame and cry all four or five times? Yeah,

Josué Cardona 1:16:43
yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I hear that. I hear that. Alright, so the plan is that there will be a GT library entry for for the movie with some of the ideas that we’ve presented here. And remember you can go to the GT library. And it is a it is a an open source wiki where you too can contribute to it. So if there are any themes that we did not touch upon, you can select them there for the movie, add your own anecdotes and ideas, so that people can see how media affects us all and different ways that we can not only relate to it, but think about stuff, use it to talk about different things, and use it in our work. So thank you for listening. For more Geek Therapy, visit geek therapy.org. And please join us in our community spaces. There’ll be links in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. Remember to geek out and do good and we’ll be back soon. byeeeeee

Josué Cardona 1:17:51
Geek Therapy is a 501 C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geek therapy.org

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

• Spider-Man: No Way Home
• Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker
• Peter Parker / Spider-Man
• Batman
• Spider-Man: Homecoming
• Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse
• Miles Morales / Spider-Man
• Aunt May / Spider-Man
• Uncle Ben / Spider-Man
• Venom
• Green Goblin / Spider-Man
• Tony Stark
• Avengers : Endgame
• Star Wars: Lost Stars by Claudia Gray
• Gwen Stacy / Spider-Man
• MJ Watson / Spider-Man
• Ned Leeds / Spider-Man

Conversation Topics:

* Agency
* Consequences
* Cultural representation
* Death
* Difficult emotions
* Family
* Finding Oneself/Identity Development
* Moral dilemma
* Problem Solving
* Positive Masculinity
* Standing up for others
* Sacrifice for others

Relatable Experience:

* Catharsis
* Coming of age/Getting older
* Death
* Depression
* Loss (other than death)
* Trauma

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Find us at www.GeekTherapy.org | @GeekTherapy | Lara: @GeekTherapist | Link: @CHICKENDINOSAUR | Josué: @JosueACardona

Ask us anything through the Question Queue and we’ll answer on the show: geektherapy.org/qq