Eternals and Impossible Choices

Josué Cardona 0:11
Welcome to GT radio on the Geek Therapy network. here at Geek Therapy We believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. I’m joined by link Keller.

Link Keller 0:20
Helloooo, nerds,

Josué Cardona 0:22
and Lara Taylor.

Lara Taylor 0:25
Hey, people,

Josué Cardona 0:28
people, geeks

Link Keller 0:30
party people

Josué Cardona 0:31
Alright, so So today we’re gonna talk about the Eternals the movie. Because I’ve never read comics. And so the reason why I want to talk about this, but there’s a few, there’s a few reasons I think it touches did there’s one main idea in it that I won’t really want to talk about, but I think it’s a great movie with. I mean, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the movie. And it has a lot of pretty fleshed out characters, and they each have very unique abilities and personalities. But the big idea that I wanted to discuss is kind of, you know, central to the film. So if you have not watched the Eternals and you do not want spoilers. Please go away. Come back. Come back later.

Lara Taylor 1:24
Watch it come back. It’s on Disney plus.

Josué Cardona 1:26
Yeah, yeah. If you don’t know how you feel about spoilers, go back to our spoiler episode. I forget what, what what number that is. But I think about that episode all the time. Spoilers for the spoiler episode. It’s about research that shows that when stuff is spoiled for you, a lot of people like you actually enjoy it more. It’s almost like there’s a build up. Oh, stuff. I think it’s, yeah, anyway, go check that out that episode. It’s a it’s a it’s it’s got to be like at least 150 episodes ago, it was a while it’s been a few years. It’s been a while. Time. So the Eternals What is it about the movie that I have not stopped thinking about? And this is the way I see it. I’m curious what both of you think, but I feel that there were no villains in the movie. And that everybody there just had, like a purpose that they were trying to fulfill. And there was no good there was no completely good solution. Like in The Avengers, like in end game, right. They, there’s that Tony Stark quote, where he says, You know, I want to make sure that we that we regain everything we lost and don’t lose anything that we’ve gained. Like, he’s like, I want to make sure that across the board. I don’t I don’t want to lose anything. Right. Like every win win win. It was the plan. And that was the the objective. And here in this movie, I feel like the eternals there’s no way. Right like everybody, there’s no way to please everybody is kind of is kind of the the message and the thing that stayed with me the most, and I haven’t stopped thinking about it since I watched the movie a couple weeks ago. Thoughts. Lara, you you disagree? your face your face is strongly disagreeing.

Lara Taylor 3:38
I disagree. I disagree. Because anytime we talk about villains, we talk about how they there are reasons for their villainy. I think that murdering your friends, your mentor, and lying to everybody and putting up this two-faced, like oh yeah, I should. Like, I’m fine with not being the leader. And you know, oh, no, I’m Ajak is dead. Like

Josué Cardona 4:17
so you think Ikaris is the villain

Lara Taylor 4:19
He’s such a liar. He’s a he’s a liar. I don’t know if he’s like, I also feel like Arishem is also a villain because I think that once again, lying to all of them, not let it like if they all knew what they were supposed to be doing. That might be I think my biggest problem is the lying, not the murder.

Josué Cardona 4:44
Obviously, well

Lara Taylor 4:44
except for murdering your friends. That’s that’s this backstabber-y

Josué Cardona 4:50
that does bother you.

Lara Taylor 4:52
It does bother me. Gotcha, but it’s pretty good. I do think that like, Yes, everyone was put in impossible situations. I understand that like The premise of the movie is billions of lives sacrificed so that more than billion billions of billions more can be brought into the world. I get that. Also, you’re taking away people’s agency and choice, and you are lying and and deceitful. And then there’s some murder. So like, not just like, destroying the whole planet genocide, murder, but like, personal. I’m killing you because I disagree with you murder. I’m luring you out here into a trap murder.

Josué Cardona 5:40
I’ll disagree.

Lara Taylor 5:41
That’s villainy.

Josué Cardona 5:43
I’ll disagree and debate you more as we as we go on. Link, your your thoughts on this. On my interpretation of events,

Link Keller 5:54
I understand what you’re saying in that even the characters like Ikaris who are serving as antagonists, to our protagonists forward momentum through the story. Even even with the antagonism, he’s still understandable as to why he takes the actions that he takes. It’s, it’s, I think, a good reflection that we see Ikaris, in an effort to uphold the purpose that He has come to understand, he is willing to sacrifice Ajax as a way to maintain his purpose. And then reflecting that later, where Sersi and the rest of the Eternals choose to sacrifice their purpose in order to save the planet. And so there’s like a nice mirroring there, where somebody is still getting killed, somebody is getting sacrificed in order to for this thing to happen. But the difference is your personal mentor, someone you have a many 1000s of years relationship with versus an an unknowable being that is coming into creation, you do not have a relationship with that person. But yeah, I get what you’re saying. I do think that Ikaris is pretty villainous. Just given the lying aspects, like Lara said, is is

Lara Taylor 7:27
the deceit,

Link Keller 7:29
the withholding the information? Like he had the opportunity, he had the information and he had the opportunity to decide for himself that for him, it was more important that he maintained the purpose he believes that he had, but he didn’t give the rest of his team that opportunity. And I think that choice pushes it over into villainy. But again, understandable it’s understandable. Like how fucking hard would it be to be like, Look, you guys so big news, um, we’re here basically is like factory farmers. And everybody that we’ve worked so hard to like save and protect and help nurture and grow is about to get killed, eaten. But like, I’ve already decided that that’s worth it. And so, like, I don’t care what you guys think is kinda shitty. But yeah.

Josué Cardona 8:25
Do you think that Ikaris struggled with that at all?

Link Keller 8:30
I’m gonna say he struggled with it more, once The woman he was he’s in love with was like, Hey, bro, not cool.

Lara Taylor 8:40
he was pretty cold when it was Ajak.

Link Keller 8:43
Yeah,

Lara Taylor 8:43
for a bit.

Link Keller 8:44
Yeah, I think I think that honestly adds some depth to his character that in the moment with him and Ajax, he was certain and he was sure that he was making the right choice for him. And then when faced with the rest of his team, and they’re pretty unanimous, like rejection of his choice, and him having to be like, Oh, I’m less sure it was a good choice now. Which then ending with a solar suicide? WHAT

Lara Taylor 9:12
Oh, seen the memes like men will literally fly into the sun to avoid therapy.

Link Keller 9:18
I sent it to you guys just I don’t know, probably 15 minutes before we got on this call but a tik tok of somebody who was like, Oh, actually, did you know that Ikaris can fly this fast? And it’s this far to the sun so it would actually take him 12 years to fly into the sun. I’m like, Yeah, I love that. what!!

Josué Cardona 9:39
So we saw into the future, so but yeah,

Link Keller 9:42
12 years later, Ikaris is like uhh into the sun.

Lara Taylor 9:47
Well, damn, he would have seen Arishem coming to take everybody away. And he could turn around and save them but instead he flew into the sun. He

Link Keller 9:58
but he couldn’t have turned around. round and say that he’s six years there. I’m already a year out you guys nooo. that’s so funny.

Josué Cardona 10:12
So Did I did I bring this movie up during our Encanto recording last time?

Lara Taylor 10:18
I don’t know if you brought it up during the recording, but it was after you were like, I have an idea for next week.

Josué Cardona 10:25
And so the similarity that I see between them right and my thing with Encanto, is it the encanto the enchantment is just a huge lie. Right? And then the family different people in the family assume different or work deal with it differently. Right. And some of them stay quiet some of them try to uphold the lie as much as possible. But there’s also different ways of seeing it like I understand how some people might disagree with me that the enchantment is just an illusion you know, the encanto an enchantment an illusion and a lie. I, I see a lot of similarities with with this movie. Or at least I keep seeing, like I saw this theme come up and between both of them were like I don’t know. Sure. Ikaris I get I still don’t see him as a villain. And I feel like he was way more tortured even with the with the killing of Ajak then, like, I don’t I don’t think he saw any other way. Right. Like there’s there’s one piece of this where which is, I mean, there they’re all literally robots that have been programmed to do a particular thing.

Lara Taylor 11:42
And he he’s basically the only one that I mean sprite Yes. But sprite also just wanted to do it because she’s in love with him.

Link Keller 11:53
I’m sprite I want people to take me seriously and treat me like an adult; does the most preteen bullshit ever.

Lara Taylor 12:00
But if they’re all robots that are basically programmed, and he’s the only one that can’t fight against it.

Josué Cardona 12:08
Well, I mean, they all have a choice, right? Like their programming is. It’s mostly like the input, right? It’s like, Yo, you have this much information to then start basing your decisions on. We used the idea of purpose before, right, like, so what is my role? What am I doing here? And then there’s the once everybody knows the truth, that that is the moment where it’s probably like, my favorite part of the movie, where you see how everybody, just like all of us, the way we that we see it, right, our belief about about, about everything, not not just what’s happening, what’s going to happen, our role in it is so different. So all of them make slightly different choices. And you’re right, there’s different motivation. But those that believe that it’s like a greater good thing, right? Because, like, without, without the celestials, there’s no people, right? So if we kill a celestial, how many earths will never come to be? Right. And then why

Lara Taylor 13:21
is it gotta be in the only popular line? No, because they need the people to grow it.

Josué Cardona 13:26
But yeah, like they explain all that right. Again, it sets up this this impossible situation, right. So but everybody chooses aside, except, except, what’s his name?

Lara Taylor 13:38
Kingo.

Josué Cardona 13:39
Right, Kingo’s, he’s like, I’m torn. I, he sees it both ways

Lara Taylor 13:45
he’s, he actually was well, he sees it. No, he definitely he disagrees he wants to go with with Ikaris. But then he’s like, I’m not gonna fight family. I’m gonna stay out of it.

Josué Cardona 13:56
you’re Right.

Lara Taylor 13:57
And he’s like, Fuck the people that I have been doing that I have loved and taken, like, done all these movies with his friend is like, I’m sorry that

Josué Cardona 14:08
it’s not just like the people though. Because it’s he’s balancing the things out. Right? And he he’s, he’s, he decides right to him the celestial is more important. Right? You’re right. And that

Lara Taylor 14:22
but his relationship with his friends and his family is more important than that

Josué Cardona 14:26
he’s not willing at he’s not willing to do that for this right? So that that’s where he falls right so so like his is really interesting because of that. And that’s why I like all of these characters who have like lived for 1000s of years on earth they have a relationship with with the planet and the people and different in different ways. Right because Druig from the very beginning that he didn’t want he was trying to protect people. But then he his power, right, the way that he protected people

Lara Taylor 14:58
like ultimate taking away of agency

Josué Cardona 15:01
completely right. It was like, I will control them, I will remove their agency completely as a way to save them. In his case, like that’s the power that he has. That’s the it’s not his only option. It’s

Link Keller 15:15
it’s the tool that he has available to him

Josué Cardona 15:17
the tool that he has available to him yup.

Lara Taylor 15:18
And then everything looks like a nail, If all you’ve got the hammer.

Josué Cardona 15:21
That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s his perspective, right? It’s like, No, I’m, I’m going to save these people. And I don’t care what you think. And he sacrificed his relationship with his family in order to save these people. And it’s like, those types of things, right, like these impossible situations that each of them are placed in. And then seeing those things change also over time, right? Because they all they all show up under the same pretense under the same lies. Right. And then, as they find out what’s going on, they the choices that they make, I think, I loved it so much because of that, and I felt I felt for a lot of the character’s, like having to be in that situation. Um, again, just super hard choices. And of course, I mean, I think I think that’s applicable to I don’t know, the stuff about about Ikaris, when I when I Link when you were talking about Ikaris’s situation, it’s like, how many times have we talked about parents? Right? Like, they make a decision, they think that they’re doing what’s best for you, right? And like, they’re, they’re causing suffering, they’re causing trauma, they’re causing pain, but like, they’re, they’re running under their programming? Or do they think that they’re doing what’s best? Or do they think that the alternative is worse? And so the types of decisions that we make, and to see this on a, like, on this scale, right, and having so many different versions of it, and across time, I can imagine this being extremely relatable to so many different situations and, and how, how we react and act when it comes to, to having to make a choice, and how we use the information that we have available at the time and how sometimes that changes over time, as well. So, that keeps keeps coming up over and over again. So in in that sense, you still do you still link Do you still see Ikaris like villainous? We’re not really defining like villain, right, but like

Link Keller 17:52
Yes.

Josué Cardona 17:53
Do you still stand by it by villainous, but but a villain or just just villainous, villainous traits? Yeah,

Lara Taylor 18:01
you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t diagnose him with villain personality disorder.

Link Keller 18:06
No I don’t think He is the villain of the movie.

Lara Taylor 18:10
No,

Link Keller 18:10
he, like, like I said, is he it’s more in antagonist than villain. Right? It’s more that the actions he’s taking are roadblocks.

Josué Cardona 18:23
Yeah.

Link Keller 18:24
More than anything else. But again, it’s like it’s like the way that they treat Sprite as being like, the young one, right is

Lara Taylor 18:38
when they’re just, she’s just as old as everyone,

Link Keller 18:41
they’re all on the same team. They all have, you know, the same level of experience. They are all very powerful.

Lara Taylor 18:52
all millenia old

Link Keller 18:53
And Ikaris taking this sort of stance of like, he didn’t he didn’t become the leader when he when Ajax died, but in his like rationalization, he is very much putting himself in a position of power over the others. And that’s shitty.

Josué Cardona 19:13
I see it. I mean, you’re not you’re not wrong.

Link Keller 19:18
Well, I see. It’s like you just said about the the parent aspect is is he treats them as like his Wards whereas like, it would be for the best for them if I withhold this information, and I keep this dark, terrible secret of the bad thing that I did away from them, because it serves your their best interests and everything. And it’s like, given the information that he has, like he knows what’s up with Thena, and he doesn’t pass that information along to anybody. Like is that that choice of him basically deciding that he’s like, I know better than everybody else. That is that is. That is villainy that is villainous.

Josué Cardona 19:59
Like, but, I feel like that the step before him doing all of that, or assuming control over the situation. I think the step before that is that he, he, he assumes responsibility.

Link Keller 20:16
I mean, real could absolutely be framed in such a ways like it was so traumatic for him to find out this information. That that was the only reaction that he could have in that moment is to try and maintain some feeling of power over it. And in that internal aspect, he had negative external outcomes. But that’s not really how the movie frames it. The movie gives him very much like, he he opted into it like this is a great idea. I can’t wait to kill my mentor. Love that for me, it’s gonna be a blast.

Lara Taylor 20:55
Well, not only that, but like I can’t wait to fulfill my purpose. I’m ready to let this planet blow up and die and move on to the next planet. And

Link Keller 21:06
oop maybe my girlfriend will come back

Lara Taylor 21:09
my boss, my mentor, my boss, the leader of my group, the one I’m my purpose is to follow as the prime eternal disagrees what we’re supposed to do, well, I’m gonna kill her. And then I’m gonna kill all my and then I’m gonna lie to my friends. And then I’m going to and I’m going to pretend that I’m going along with this whole thing, and let them collect together and then I’m gonna stop them and kill them.

Josué Cardona 21:40
But you don’t care about the killing though. like the lying.

Lara Taylor 21:44
Mostly the lying, a little bit of the killing,

Link Keller 21:47
hey they all do killing so it’s kind of hard to give anybody particular shame about

Lara Taylor 21:52
but it’s like the betrayal of the the close relationships like Yeah, sure. Kill some. Some deviants. Is that what?

Link Keller 22:05
Yeah. deviant. is Eternals V deviants. Yeah, yep. Yeah, yep.

Lara Taylor 22:13
And there’s even some worse things like now they’re sentient beings that are being thrown into this whole thing against their will.

Josué Cardona 22:20
I mean, they’re the same. I mean, they’re, they’re just,

Lara Taylor 22:23
they’re the same, but different.

Josué Cardona 22:25
The eternals are deviants, 2.0 they’re just a slightly upgraded with a different story for them to carry out the, the same, the same goal. Um, and also like, they all the deviants went against their programming as well. It’s just slightly different. Probably because they were less. Like, less advanced, right? So there was there, their options were more limited in what they could do.

Link Keller 23:00
They didn’t have superpowers.

Josué Cardona 23:03
Didn’t have, but also like they did, they were limited in like, speech and thought and thinking and things like that. Right. Like, they seem to be more again, like, just their, their ability to, to reason was was limited. They were they were sent in like, but they were more animals than than humans. Their ability to do stuff even though slowly they were like evolving but they were they started way way behind on that line. So to my again, my going back to my I’m offering another interpretation right to to the way that I feel like you’re presenting it like I’m seeing a responsibility on Ikaris’s part like, like what happens when we’re talking about family dynamics, where people start assuming particular roles, like either either the caretaker role or a hero role or things like that. And yes, he killed right his his choice was to kill or to she didn’t kill her right like this is where I see like, you see the struggle in him right

Lara Taylor 24:15
scar didn’t kill Mufasa, the wildebeasts did.

Josué Cardona 24:21
Yeah. Sort of. Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, you’re not

Lara Taylor 24:25
he literally threw her off a cliff.

Link Keller 24:27
It was gravity, not me, sweet Ikaris!

Josué Cardona 24:30
But scar was putting on a show

Lara Taylor 24:32
I can fly, I forgot that she couldn’t not my problem.

Josué Cardona 24:35
Scar was putting on a show and I mean

Lara Taylor 24:37
he did too! he had a whole little monologue and then he pushes her off the cliff. And then the deviants come after her again, he did his villainous the the iconic, villainous monologue, the deviants will kill you and then they’re going to have to worry about the deviants and not about the the emergence

Josué Cardona 24:59
look, I’m not denying that he caused her death. I’m saying he could have blown her head off at any moment, but like

Josué Cardona 25:07
that’s even worse!

Link Keller 25:09
I’m changing my answer, the villainous act is having that monologue it would have been fine if he just like walk through and be like ajak and then shoved her, not villainous, but he monologues for so therefore, villain.

Josué Cardona 25:25
Look, I empathize with Ikaris and in there I see him as like I can’t like, I love this person I can’t do it. But

Lara Taylor 25:36
I don’t think he’s ever had a moment where it was I can’t do it. There was a maybe I don’t want to when I’m sad I have to. But I’m gonna.

Josué Cardona 25:44
Yeah, no, I disagree. I disagree. strongly, strongly. And because of the way that he’s acted throughout and like, as I’m watching the movie, like I see him. It seems like he’s questioning what he’s done right? Like, did I do like, am I? Like, I know I made this choice. Like, could I have done things differently? Things aren’t playing out the way I wanted it. It’s, it’s the struggle that I see that just like, oh, like, it pains me to see that character in. Throughout the movie, like it’s sold that idea to me, or at least that’s the way that I that I read it. And again, it makes me think about in this case, but let’s say that, let’s assume they’re all the same age, right? It’s like, okay, that something happens, who’s gonna assume responsibility who’s gonna do something, and in many ways that he’s been brought up as the leader, they all saw him that way. So when this happened, and actually ajak is like, the de facto leader, and she sees him as like, the next logical type of leader. So she goes to him, right? Because like, again, we all see him that way. And then it and that’s where he then assumes responsibility, right? He’s like, No, then I have to do this because our kids, our caretaker, is no longer able to do this. Yeah, I see. That’s the way I see it as like, oh, this person just can’t do the job anymore. So now I have to do it. And obviously makes terrible choices. I don’t think he made any good choices. But I think he I think he struggled with them. And, and especially at the end you can see like it pained him to have to do things this way. And

Lara Taylor 27:37
I definitely see it after that. But in that in that murder scene, I was like, he does not. Yeah, he doesn’t care as much. I mean, he has a moment where he’s like, I’m looking at he didn’t say I’m sorry, I can’t remember. But you could see some remorse that he was doing it. But there was no hesitation in doing it. It was premeditated. Prime maternal-cide.

Josué Cardona 28:09
Now Ajak Her story is that she she knows the whole truth from the beginning. And she has that scene, right? That conversation with Ikaris, where she says something changed, like I cannot follow that plan anymore. Like these people. Again, you’re aware you’re weighing your options, right? It’s like, Are these people were sacrificing? It’s like, No, I think that doesn’t matter how great the the how important the celestial is. I I feel like the people of this planet are even more than that are more important than that. And they’re worth saving. And then she changes her mind after who knows, how are they? We,

Lara Taylor 29:04
we they’ve been done this on several planets, but we don’t know

Josué Cardona 29:07
how many times right.

Link Keller 29:09
It’s unclear if Ajak like, has previous memories, or if she like them gets reset. She just happens to know that that is happening. Right? There’s still a distinction there. Yep. We don’t know. Yeah. But like having actually experienced a cataclysmic events and remembering it and be like, what time to do it again, versus just like, I know what’s supposed to happen, but I’m finding it a little distasteful now.

Josué Cardona 29:34
Yeah, yeah. And yeah. And so even even if she does, we don’t know how many times they’ve done this before. But in her case, again, she she made a decision. It’s like well, she changed her mind. Ikaris was way too rigid. Although all the way through, right. He did not change his mind doesn’t matter. What what happened in what he was presented with. He just Again, he couldn’t, he’d go, like everybody had up to a point. Right? So he was willing to to stop every but he’s not willing to kill Sersi right like he was even willing to kill Ajak but he can’t kill Sersi, not Sersi see like, he loves her too much he can’t do it. Even. I mean in a way even Arishem at the end, he’s like, You did what? You better you we’re going to court and you need to prove that these people are worthy of saving. Who do you Who do you need to make a good case for this? Right? Because that was not okay. You did not follow the rules. You did not follow the right procedures, you did not follow the form. And so now you need to you need to explain your actions. Because like, I mean, like, he could just if you were so mad, he could just like, destroy the earth. You know, I mean, it it’s, it’s interesting to see all of those moments, right again, kingo’s moment. Did I guess no one else really had. Did anybody else like struggle with their decision? Cuz I feel like thena

Lara Taylor 31:18
Thena was all about like, my person. I died. Yeah. Gilgamesh died. Like, yeah.

Josué Cardona 31:28
I’m, like, like, oh, Phastos, Phastos. He did struggle a bit. He’s,

Lara Taylor 31:34
he’s my favorite. And he didn’t struggle.

Josué Cardona 31:37
He struggled with what to do.

Lara Taylor 31:39
Right? Right. He didn’t know how to fight it. He didn’t know what was going to work. He just wanted to go back home and be with his husband and his son, which by the way, yay, Marvel for finally putting in an actual character with more than one line not making a huge deal about it. Just like, oh, there’s my husband and my son,

Link Keller 31:58
and neither of them died!

Lara Taylor 32:00
Neither of them died. So thank you marvel for that.

Link Keller 32:03
Little crumb. Yum, yum, yum, yum, yum.

Lara Taylor 32:07
Way better. And I didn’t hear anyone talking about it. But I also didn’t pay attention after the movie. But it was like, remember when there was the scene in like, in endgame in the support group and there’s like a finally gonna have a queer character. And it’s just like, I gay. Diet my Oh, my husband died in the in the, in the snap, and blah, blah, blah. This was just, it was beautiful. And I loved it. So thank you, Marvel. Yeah, I think I like Phastos, probably the best. Like, he’s like, I bet I tried to help these people. They destroyed each other with my inventions. I’m just going to live this quiet life on my own with my family. Yeah. And here kind of gets pulled back into it

Link Keller 32:55
him not having like a ton of screen time, they still managed to make him like a pretty a three dimensional character with an actual Arc. The thing with the Hiroshima bombs, and him being like, these fuckers do not deserve to be protected by us look at this, look at this. And then I love my husband and son. Humans are great, actually. I was like, Oh, gross beuatiful

Josué Cardona 33:21
look at the way I look at the way that he thinks right? He he’s thinking he’s assuming responsibility for the actions of other people here that he created the tools but he didn’t create he didn’t have them make them do it that particular way right. So he is he but he feels this responsibility, whether he is responsible or not. You know, that of course people people will debate that as well.

Lara Taylor 33:46
people will take whatever tool and do good and bad with it, you know?

Josué Cardona 33:50
Yeah, but I mean, like, like, your position on that right? Like, do you feel he is responsible or not? Should you have not made it? Like, I don’t know.

Lara Taylor 33:57
He probably shouldn’t have made it and yet he did not detonate the bomb. Ikaris threw ajak off a cliff

Josué Cardona 34:10
so, so Phastos, right. He’s, he’s assuming responsibility for this. Now later on. We see him struggle with the idea of okay. I can I can enjoy these two days with my family. Or I can risk having those last two days to possibly, you know, piss off Arishem and fight Ikaris and do all this other stuff. And and he initially chooses to to stay right. He’s like,

Lara Taylor 34:41
and then his husband is like,

Link Keller 34:42
don’t be stupid

Lara Taylor 34:43
Go.

Josué Cardona 34:44
yeah.

Lara Taylor 34:45
But save us if you can,

Josué Cardona 34:46
yes, but he’s, again, he he’s weighing these two big terrible options. Right? It’s like die with my family and spend two days it’s important. Try to save and go against these incredible odds and possibly die and not see my family, right? Think, again, super tough choice. He makes a decision, his husband convinces him to do to do something else. But it’s a it’s ever again, just again and again, just a movie just presenting you impossible. Things like there are some that I don’t know what I would have done. If I were in his position at that time. I don’t know that. I don’t know that two days was enough to decide what to do, right? Like everybody has to make these really important decisions in an in a very short amount of time.

Link Keller 35:39
Ain’t that just the way

Josué Cardona 35:41
ain’t that just the way. this movie was, like, emotionally taxing on me? Seeing all these people have to do this over and over again. No, no. I mean, there are other themes and stuff in the movie too. But I think I think you know, I think

Lara Taylor 35:58
that the tough decisions the big.

Josué Cardona 36:02
Yeah, the impossible.

Lara Taylor 36:03
The impossible choices. Yeah,

Josué Cardona 36:06
yeah. Yeah. There’s other stuff going on, too, of course. I mean, I like the exploration of like, people changing their minds. Sersi struggles with this. But like, where Ikaris decided to assume responsibility.

Lara Taylor 36:25
She was given

Josué Cardona 36:27
Sersi it was imposed upon her.

Lara Taylor 36:29
Yeah.

Josué Cardona 36:30
Yeah. She did not want that orb she did not want. And it’s funny because they, they show that she is the most carefree of them. She’s the one that’s enjoying life the most. Right? Like she she loves social media. She loves her Instagram filters.

Lara Taylor 36:47
loves her ringtone and

Josué Cardona 36:49
she’s more playful than Sprite, right? Like, Sprite is struggling with, like this idea of, you know, being stuck in, in a child’s body. But, but Sersi’s just like, loving life and dating and you know, like in a she’s

Lara Taylor 37:05
going to the club.

Josué Cardona 37:06
goin to the club right She’s having fun.

Lara Taylor 37:08
teaching

Josué Cardona 37:09
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then this is put on her right? Again, impossible. Just very difficult situation. But like,

Lara Taylor 37:19
she’s where the world is ending? Do I go back and be with my boyfriend? Do I take on this mantle? I have to take, like, that’s been given to me. What do we do,

Josué Cardona 37:33
but also like fighting your parents? Right? And like, like going against everything that you’ve ever thought, also, learning that you’ve been lied to? For for your entire life, that parts of your of your existence have been hidden

Lara Taylor 37:48
the 7000 years you’ve known about?

Josué Cardona 37:51
Yeah, it’s a lot to take at once. It’s a lot to take on. I want and then on top of that have to make the decision. Right? Because she, she could have decided, like, well, let’s pack up and go. This sucks. But um, but I guess they’ll have to die. Maybe I’ll bring Dane Whitman with me. You know, maybe a couple more people. Maybe there’s like a couple students. And she’s like,

Link Keller 38:18
Should we tell the Avengers? nahh

Josué Cardona 38:20
Tell the Avengers? What should we do?

Lara Taylor 38:22
And her ultimate goal wasn’t to stop the emergence and kill the celestial. She wanted to get both things. She wanted to get billions of people onto a ship and take them off the planet and find another planet that they could live on. Yeah, and that didn’t happen. It

Josué Cardona 38:43
was it was like the the Tony Stark thing, right? It’s like, can we have everything? Can we can we solve it? Can we lose just a little bit

Link Keller 38:53
can I serve my purpose without the terrible sacrifice?

Josué Cardona 38:56
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, no, I think celestial is important. That’d be cool. How do we do it? How do I not sacrifice anything?

Lara Taylor 39:04
How do we kill or how do we not kill all these people? How do we, how do we

Josué Cardona 39:09
Yeah. And she but then finally she? She makes a choice, right? She’s like, I have to choose one or one or the other. And, and has to do it by her own hands. In the end, she strangled that celestial.

Lara Taylor 39:24
And she chose the people that she’d nurtured over 7000 years.

Link Keller 39:29
She chose her children over her parents. Yeah, it’s a little ham fisted. But sure. Yeah, yeah.

Josué Cardona 39:41
Again, to me it’s sold it’s it’s sold like how that’s it seems like a struggle for them. Right. Like there’s just a lot at once and then just again, impossible, impossible. Such version. And then at the end, they took her away, or sucked. Anyway, we’ll see we’ll see in the sequel, or whatever the next big, big event is.

Lara Taylor 40:13
I think we’re gonna be waiting a while. Probably,

Josué Cardona 40:15
probably

Link Keller 40:16
I submit that there will be a little morsel of something in the Doctor Strange movie. That is my guess

Lara Taylor 40:25
possibly probably.

Link Keller 40:27
Not much, but a little, little smackeral.

Lara Taylor 40:31
I talked to several people who didn’t even realize this was in the MCU. Because there are throwing the lines about it is so different from anything that the Marvel movies have, like it, it is yes, in our biggest crossover movies, but there are 11 character 10 or 11 characters that have like these fleshed out stories that you really feel like you get to know. And there’s only a couple of throwaway lines about the bigger picture. There were no cameos from the others. Like there’s comments about Tony Stark and Steve Rogers and Thanos. And that’s it, like so,

Link Keller 41:13
and Thor

Lara Taylor 41:14
and Thor,

Link Keller 41:15
who I absolutely I absolutely do not believe that Kingo actually knew Thor as a kid. I think he was being a little braggart

Lara Taylor 41:24
as he is

Link Keller 41:26
Kumail Nanjiani was good in this movie.

Lara Taylor 41:29
Oh, yeah

Josué Cardona 41:29
imagine the scene of them together. And and Thor’s like, doesn’t remember him

Lara Taylor 41:34
that should have been the after credits?

Josué Cardona 41:36
Like, I don’t? I don’t? I don’t remember that.

Link Keller 41:39
Thor! I don’t know you.

Josué Cardona 41:41
I don’t think so.

Link Keller 41:42
don’t touch me.

Josué Cardona 41:48
And then winks at him in a way that he like, then you don’t know if he’s telling the truth or not like, like he did with StarLord. Now, one of my favorite ideas that’s in the movie that’s like, completely separate, I think from from a lot of these is Thena’s. What’s the condition? The Mahd Wy’ry? The Mahd Wy’ry, which is this?

Lara Taylor 42:14
It’s essentially like they presented as PTSD,

Josué Cardona 42:18
nooo

Lara Taylor 42:19
similar to like The Sims, like,

Josué Cardona 42:21
hmmm let me I’m sorry, explain

Lara Taylor 42:26
the way that the way they’re presenting it, it’s like she has been through so much that the brain let I guess that’s kind of the way I saw it after they explain what’s actually going on. So the way they presented is, your brain just starts fracturing your mind just

Josué Cardona 42:42
too much information,

Lara Taylor 42:43
too much information like they don’t. Because you’re alive for 1000s of years. And then the after the fact it’s your mind is fracturing from the weight of the things you have done, that you aren’t integrating into your actual, like, memory, like these are memories that were wiped but not completely wiped, like she remembered being on another planet and the planet being destroyed. And the people that she’d been with being destroyed. So in a way she had this, like memory of this traumatic event.

Josué Cardona 43:25
I like this framing actually, I never thought of it that way. It’s almost like like intrusive thoughts that are coming back

Lara Taylor 43:33
repressed intrusive thoughts. Yeah, that’s right.

Josué Cardona 43:36
Or, or that they’re all dissociating from. And then,

Lara Taylor 43:40
but it’s like a forced dissociation

Josué Cardona 43:42
of course Yeah, it’s, it’s funny, right? Early on in the movie, they told they basically told us that they’re robots, and they need to run the defrag fragment program. Right. After a while. But I still I still didn’t think they were robots until later. When they told us they were robots. I liked I liked that framing. I hadn’t thought about that way. I was.

Lara Taylor 44:07
I love that you disagreed with me. And then you’re like, No, wait, I like that.

Josué Cardona 44:10
I liked it. I said, I mean, I didn’t

Lara Taylor 44:14
you didn’t see it that way, it’s okay

Josué Cardona 44:15
It’s because very, it’s a good interpretation. I think and I think it works. I think it works really well. I was really interested in it because I love this. This idea of the we our brains are limited and we don’t have enough capacity to store so much information. So what happens over time, when you have all this information, like if we live longer, how much could we really remember, there’s this there’s this great episode of Doctor Who that I love that. It’s like this, this human unwillingly becomes immortal. And then you you see her 1000s of years later and she has this library. And she she’s documented her entire her life and she says to me, they’re just stories. I don’t remember even writing them. They’re stories of like, my children and relationships that I’ve had and things that I’ve been through. And to me, it’s, I’m so removed from it. And she’s so upset about that, that she doesn’t get to. She’s not happy that she gets to live longer. She’s just upset about the fact that she can’t remember any of it really.

Lara Taylor 45:22
It reminds me of a solo journaling tabletop role playing game I played called 1000 year old vampire where over time you lose memories because your brain can’t hold that much. So over time you pick, like you roll the die. It gives you a prompt, you write a new memory down, but you have to choose one from another slot that you have to remove from your journal.And

Josué Cardona 45:50
an impossible situation like why why why

Lara Taylor 45:54
do you forget the and this is I only got through the beginning of the game, I had to lose already lose like 15 minutes in playing. I had to choose between like, my first losing the memory of my my love and my marriage. Or like

Josué Cardona 46:14
of a current one or have a previous one

Lara Taylor 46:16
of the pre of well, the only one because I hadn’t gotten to another memory of that because I was a monstrous vampire. I rolled pretty badly and had a Evil storyline. But I didn’t choose between that and like my best friend. Like

Josué Cardona 46:32
the memories of your best friend.

Lara Taylor 46:34
Yeah, all of the memories of my best friend that I had. So it was it’s a really cool game.

Josué Cardona 46:41
Okay, okay. Okay. Okay, so, so help me, I want I want to hear what you think. Like, what is? What’s cool about that? What is fun about being in a situation like that.

Lara Taylor 46:54
I like the building of the story. I like the idea that, like, it’s like role, any role playing game, you’re building a story, you’re telling something that could be optional. And it lets you play with the like, well, if I had to choose, what would I choose without actually having to choose?

Josué Cardona 47:17
But but you have to? Again, it’s a it’s an exchange? Right? And yeah, and it’s not that you can frame

Lara Taylor 47:26
you move the story along, right, you lose a memory, you’re building a new memory. And depending on how you roll, it depends on the type that gives you a different type of memory.

Josué Cardona 47:38
So are you saying that it’s like a risk reward type of thing? Kind of like a gamble? Yeah. And does it feel

Lara Taylor 47:48
kind of like that, except that except that there is like, you always are going to lose a memory and gain a memory.

Josué Cardona 47:59
Right. So but I mean, there’s lots of games where you collect resources and extend lose them and exchange them for something else or, or their currency systems. Right? Maybe you work for it or earn them

Lara Taylor 48:10
the currency of memories,

Josué Cardona 48:12
right? So I mean, this is the thing about about the, the narrative of a game, or the the story, which is that there’s, there’s a very different meaning to that, just like if it were just resources, there’s a story to how you collected those resources and all of that, and, and there’s, there’s meaning in the exchange of it from one thing to another, and the and the time spent and the effort spent in doing that. The framing of it being a memory feels that’s a different flavor. Right? And so even even if your

Lara Taylor 48:46
reward, right is for the character in the game, you get to be 1000 You get to be a vampire, you get to live to be 1000 year old years old, and like have all these cool adventures and what would it be like to be a vampire in this time period or this time period or this time period?

Josué Cardona 49:05
It just doesn’t sound

Lara Taylor 49:07
doesn’t sound appealing to you. That’s fine

Josué Cardona 49:09
not to me, right? It’s a It’s so sad right? To have to have to know as a like,

Lara Taylor 49:15
and a lot of times a role playing game is going to be sad to

Link Keller 49:18
I think that’s part of what is like philosophically interesting about it right is like playing with this idea of longevity immortality, whichever direction you want to take that and being human, to whom those things do not apply. And the recognition of if you were to attain that, you would something would have to be traded. That isn’t that isn’t a freebie. You lose. You lose some aspect of your humanity. When you stop being a mortal human and getting to play in that space. Also gives you like reflection on what things in your own life as you grow and Age throughout your own normal length life, you are losing things, you are giving up things, you are cutting off pieces of yourself to grow new parts of yourself. We play on a very small timescale, but through 1000 year vampire, you can expand that to like, how much bigger could that be? The stakes are now you know,

Lara Taylor 50:23
thousands of years, millions of years, right?

Josué Cardona 50:27
So there’s a there’s a difference between, like, if there were, if it was just like a board game, right. And then it is a currency versus I feel again, I haven’t played the game, but I feel like there’s such a big difference to give. It’s a role playing game. And they’re like, my memories and something that like there’s a there’s a just like the difference between watching a movie seeing characters going through something like this, versus you know, thinking about yourself in that situation and how you, you you do have to make sacrifices, possible situations

Link Keller 50:59
and the aspect of you are writing out these memories like you the player you are creating. And so the idea of like, I am sacrificing this thing that I spent time and thought on creating, and now it’s gone and I have to I player have to keep going from there. It’s like that’s, that’s interesting. Not necessarily fun, but or like happy.

Lara Taylor 51:24
It might not be fun, but it can be fun, right? Like

Link Keller 51:27
it sounds fun to me.

Lara Taylor 51:29
It could be fun.

Link Keller 51:30
I love vampires.

Lara Taylor 51:31
Explore the explore what happens next right? the story. It’s not necessarily in a situation when you’re playing d&d, and you have a perma death. And then you got to start all over this you’re not starting over. You’re continuing the story.

Josué Cardona 51:47
Yeah, I’m glad you brought it up. Because I think I think it adds perspective to kind of the, the, some of the ideas in the in the movie, right? I mean, there’s, it’s, there’s similar concepts. Just, we we ascribe different meaning to all of these pieces, right. So just like for each of the characters in the movie, they ascribe different meaning to their relationship to Arishem into their relationship to the people to their relationship to the other individuals to their own future potential, like in sprites case, sure. She’s in love with Ikaris, but also, like, on planet Earth, she looks like a kid maybe in another planet? She would you know, she she she would pass it as an adult or wouldn’t have been such a, you know, she wouldn’t be suffering. So like, for her currently. That sucks. For Phastos

Lara Taylor 52:39
She’s been dealing with that for 7000 years. Yeah. And but

Josué Cardona 52:43
Phastos has a has a has a husband and a kid right now. So like, at this very moment. I want to, I want to I want to fight for this. I want to I want to protect this. Yeah, yeah. And same event happening 100 years later, they might also choose different things, because because the meaning of their different options would would completely change. Part of it being the investment as well. And but also, yeah, right. Time,

Link Keller 53:16
if the celestial was supposed to rise up after the bombs Phastos would have been like, hell yeah, let’s do it. It’s time. Let’s do it. I’m ready. It’s given his current situation that their current context what they are actually existing within shapes the decisions you make. Yeah, and that’s what makes it interesting.

Josué Cardona 53:36
Yeah. And in that example of the game, like, sure you wrote the memory. But, you know, a couple sessions later, you don’t care as much about that first memory, as you

Lara Taylor 53:48
no I care about the next one that like I came up with that was really cool. And then maybe I don’t have to give that one up, you know, I choose I’m gonna give up all the rest of them.

Josué Cardona 54:00
The meaning of the value of things changes with with a change of over time and perspective as well. Which is good, which is like, why I really love this movie, because it not only shows 11 different perspectives. It also shows them across time.

Link Keller 54:20
there are only 10.

Josué Cardona 54:20
I don’t know I said 11 before Lara said 11 only 10 What

Lara Taylor 54:24
I think there are 10

Link Keller 54:25
there are 10 eternals Are you including uhh Harum?

Josué Cardona 54:30
including the deviant prime,

Link Keller 54:32
I think that was his name?

Lara Taylor 54:34
Arishem you mean?

Josué Cardona 54:35
Karun?

Link Keller 54:35
no, Karun MVP, my favorite my favorite guy?

Josué Cardona 54:42
I don’t know you said 11 Before Lara so,

Lara Taylor 54:44
I think I think one time I miscounted so I was like 11 And then I was like 10

Josué Cardona 54:49
You’re not You’re also not including Dane Whitman and Pip the troll and Starfox and Blade

Link Keller 54:59
I’ve no idea who Pip the troll is in comic history, but I got very excited that it was Patton Oswald’s voice. I was like Patton! what you doing here!

Josué Cardona 55:09
look at him. Look at him. Yep. But you get a lot of different perspectives. And you also see them over time. You know, I’m actually and we haven’t even mentioned Makkari, but she was great. I just want to say,

Link Keller 55:24
I think she I think she’s my favorite

Josué Cardona 55:27
Makkari was cool. Poor Makkari She’s like, are we going home? It’s like, oh, sorry, you got a

Link Keller 55:36
sorta?. from a certain perspective, yes. But I’m definitely not the way you’re thinking. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 55:45
Define home.

Link Keller 55:48
Home is in your heart. And we’re already there. Yeah,

Josué Cardona 55:53
yeah. So again, I love the potential to explore this movie. And, and that idea that we’re seeing them over time, and even possibly, like, we don’t get to see it. Exactly. But we know that this is also played out for them in different planets, as well. So yeah, no, frickin love this movie. Really, really liked it. And that’s just an I’m just a story.

Link Keller 56:18
What if the reveal is like, no, no, they they do this on every planet. I swear to God, I don’t know why Arishem’s like I don’t know why I keep sending them out. These hooligans, every time. Dang it.

Lara Taylor 56:31
That would be wonderful.

Link Keller 56:33
I have to rebuild Ajax again. Like come on.

Josué Cardona 56:36
I know. Okay, so let’s geek out a little bit on the on kind of some other stuff. Right, like representation.

Link Keller 56:44
Fantastic.

Josué Cardona 56:45
Like the most

Link Keller 56:45
so diverse, beautiful,

Josué Cardona 56:48
most diverse Marvel movie by far.

Link Keller 56:51
Yeah.

Josué Cardona 56:52
By far, like, Nothing even comes close.

Link Keller 56:55
the bar was low, but they jumped right over.

Josué Cardona 56:57
Yep, yep. Yep, absolutely. Absolutely

Link Keller 57:00
we have like a medium level high bar now.

Josué Cardona 57:03
yeah. Right. Ability, gender, age, nationality.

Lara Taylor 57:10
Sexual orientation,

Josué Cardona 57:12
Sexual orientation everything.

Link Keller 57:16
Deaf, deaf signing.

Josué Cardona 57:18
Yeah. Saying a different ability. Yeah. Just just ahh so good. And then dissing different places as well. Real places, in many cases, right? Because it’s

Link Keller 57:30
a very beautiful movie, not in just like the beautiful landscapes that they showed, but also in the costume design. And the way that their powers looked was all really visually distinct from like other Marvel stuff. I’m thinking most specifically of Phastos with the little golden circles. Yeah, throwing those looked so cool. And and

Lara Taylor 57:58
it looked a lot like Tony Stark’s

Josué Cardona 58:01
absolutely 100% of

Lara Taylor 58:02
what he’s doing the whole thing. He’s doing the whole Yeah, the hands moving around throwing things in the air to build cool shit.

Josué Cardona 58:09
Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

Link Keller 58:11
it’s it’s yeah, very pretty. Very pretty movie. Yeah,

Josué Cardona 58:14
the idea is that it introduces just like, it’s just so good to have all these theories about where it where it can go and how it fits into other stuff.

Lara Taylor 58:27
But also they were allowed to mention both Batman and Superman in the movie.

Josué Cardona 58:34
And just end in and just copy Superman and the flash like nothing like even even even Makkari’s colors are like the flash There are red

Lara Taylor 58:44
DC and Marvel copy each other all the time

Josué Cardona 58:47
I know, but this is the first time to like see it.

Lara Taylor 58:51
Batman is Tony Stark, like Batman and Iron Man.

Link Keller 58:54
Wouldn’t it go the other way? When Tony Stark be Batman. Yeah, Batman The older one.

Josué Cardona 59:02
Yeah, yeah. But there’s been there’s closer copies though. Yeah, there are they’re much closer. Yeah, yeah. It’s good stuff.

Link Keller 59:12
We had our first sex scene.

Josué Cardona 59:16
Mm hmm.

Link Keller 59:17
Sex in the MCU!

Josué Cardona 59:22
the only reason I people brought it up I was like, oh, yeah, I guess there hasn’t been a sex scene

Lara Taylor 59:30
Yeah, I mean, we know what happened there. Their children were born.

Link Keller 59:35
We know off screen at least a couple of you fucked but now we have proof.

Josué Cardona 59:41
I guess

Lara Taylor 59:42
at least these two did

Josué Cardona 59:43
what’s the big deal? because it’s a Disney because it’s technically like Disney. Does that why it’s a big deal. Sort of, I don’t know. I don’t know.

Link Keller 59:52
I think from media psychology brain. I think it is a interesting and important aspect. In that it makes these immortal planet guardians more human

Josué Cardona 1:00:06
human.

Link Keller 1:00:06
That is a very human act. And it actually showed them doing it. Especially couched within this sort of marriage scene.

Josué Cardona 1:00:16
And maybe, huh, do you think it also, because when we meet them they’re separated, it like reinforces how close they were before? Like, is that is it kind of a narrative ploy in that way? Because sex means love obviously

Link Keller 1:00:32
well, and, I mean, I think we can have my own personal opinion here. But also because Ikaris and Sersi did not have as much chemistry with each other as Sersi did with Dane. So I think they were like, We got to, like, make sure the audience knows like they did actually. 100% love each other at one point.

Josué Cardona 1:00:54
Yeah, yeah. Well, and then, of course, the the, the biggest representation of all was the Game of Thrones representation, which was distracting and disturbing. And I don’t know,

Link Keller 1:01:09
I laughed, I laughed out loud. It was so funny to me.

Lara Taylor 1:01:12
Stark boys Back at it again.

Josué Cardona 1:01:15
To see him say, Sersi, it’s just it’s just too much. It was just distracting. Ah, all right. Well, any any closing thoughts on anything else want to add Lara? Nothing? No, good. Link?

Link Keller 1:01:31
there was a deleted scene that I saw where Sprite and Dane Whitman have a conversation with each other that I am bummed did not end up in the actual movie. Even though I feel that the movie was way too long. I wish that they had left. They left that scene in because it gave sprite a whole lot more character. And it also was fun. It was a fun scene. It’s like them talking in the museum and sprite basically being all like, yeah, that’s that bone dinosaur is a deviant. And you’re stupid little man. And I know you like my look. I know you like sourcing he’s like, Oh, but I’m not gonna. I’m not gonna get between you two I would never take her, I know you don’t have parents. So I know. I’m not gonna separate you. And she’s like, Sure, dude. Whatever. was very funny to me. It gave both of those characters more dimension. So wish that was in there. Check out deleted scenes there on YouTube and Tiktok. And I’m sure Twitter. But yeah,

Josué Cardona 1:02:39
I go to Twitter to find all my deleted scenes. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you. Thank you for debating me. On my my views of the movie. Thank you, everyone for listening. Thank for joining us. Remember to join the conversation. Don’t Have to agree with me or not? In our different community spaces. There’s links to all of that in the show notes from our Geek Therapy, visit geek therapy.org remember to geek out and do good. We’ll be back next episode.

Link Keller 1:03:14
MByee!

Josué Cardona 1:03:16
Geek Therapy is a 501 C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geek therapy.org

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

• Eternals (2021)
• Avengers: Endgame (2019)
• Encanto (2021)
• 1000 Year Vampire (solo-ttrpg)

Conversation Topics:

* Betrayal
* Change
* Consequences
* Cultural representation
* Death
* Difficult emotions
* Family
* Fear
* Honesty/Lies
* Leadership
* LGBT Representation
* Love
* Moral dilemma
* Power struggle
* Standing up for others
* Strong female role models
* Sacrifice for others
* Taking responsibility for one’s actions
* Working with others

Relatable Experience:

* Blended Family
* Clarity/Understanding
* Death
* Disability
* Fear/Anxiety
* Fighting
* Guilt
* New Life Event (New Rules)
* Separation
* Suicide
* Trauma

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Find us at www.GeekTherapy.org | @GeekTherapy | Lara: @GeekTherapist | Link: @CHICKENDINOSAUR | Josué: @JosueACardona

Ask us anything through the Question Queue and we’ll answer on the show: geektherapy.org/qq