#333: Josué and the crew talk about examples of fusion in media, including combined identity, shared goals, and power imbalances.
Marc Cuiriz 0:11
Welcome to GT radio on the Geek Therapy network. Here at Geek Therapy we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Marc Cuiriz and I am joined by Josué Cardona.
Josué Cardona 0:24
Marc Cuiriz 0:25
Link Keller 0:26
Marc Cuiriz 0:31
And Lara Taylor.
Lara Taylor 0:33
Marc Cuiriz 0:37
That was very anticlimactic right there.
Lara Taylor 0:40
Marc Cuiriz 0:42
I mean, it’s kind of hard to beat Link’s energy honestly.
Lara Taylor 0:44
It really is. That’s why I didn’t try.
Marc Cuiriz 0:49
All right, Josué, I believe it is your turn this week. So what is
Josué Cardona 0:52
it is my turn. So I was reading comic books, because I do that sometimes. And yeah, I may have mentioned once or twice that I, I am a fan of Mark Waid. And when I found out he was writing, the Batman Superman series, or world’s finest, there’s many different iterations of this. It comes and goes as a series. It’s been, I really, really like it. There’s something about a Superman and Batman. Seeing their inner thoughts about each other is always really funny, if they’ve got a hell of a bromance. And and it just, I don’t know, the only only those books tend to really go deep into that. And so I saw a Tiktok, where they showed something that happened, and I could not believe it. So I watched, I watched, so I read the comic book. And there is a moment where Batman and Superman in the middle of a battle. Thanks to magic. They fuse into one being. That’s the that’s the reason why I wanted to see this and it looks badass. I don’t know, I like the look of it. Like, the moment they make a statue of that or an extra for your whatever. Like I’m, I’m I feel I feel it in my pocket. And I’m I love that fusion stuff. I think that that was such a cool part of Steven Universe. I love it in, in Dragon Ball, of course. And it’s one of those things that the the way it comes up in in these shows and is also the point in, in, in this comic book is that to like the sum, the sum is greater than the like, this new thing is more powerful than the sum of its parts, right? So it’s like, oh, we can’t we’re both fighting. And we’re both doing this, but we can’t do it as individuals. What if we come together and we become this new thing, and it’s always like an exponential level up. Also, Voltron Power Rangers like anything, I think those count too. one of my one of my favorite things from like, the original Power Ranger series was like, of course, you had like the main, the main Megazords. And they would the main swords, right. And they would form and make this Megazord. And then later on, like, they introduce the Green Ranger, and he’s got this dragon. And once he turns good, it’s like, aw naw, he also adds to the to the thing, like they would bring in more people and it was like, more fusing just more stuff. And I love how Steven Universe did that too. It was like, we can
Lara Taylor 1:06
we can all fuse!
Josué Cardona 1:54
do it too. Yeah, why make why just two, fuse with anybody. And they have different names and personalities. And anyway, I’ve always loved the this example and even just the thought exercise of, of two things fusing together of two people, right like and think about how if you could fuse with someone else for you know, what would that be? What would we be called? What would it you know, what greater abilities would you have? I almost I wanted to propose and we can still do it after if we want. One of my favorite episodes that we’ve done was the spidersonas one where we each drew our spider says it’s I was going to invite everybody here to design a fusion of themselves with anyone or anything else. Link you drew a fusion of a cat and an ant earlier in the in the pre show?
Link Keller 4:44
You should specify that it’s Garfield i think it’s important for our listeners to know it’s Garfield
Josué Cardona 4:53
was a specific cat and nonspecific ant
Link Keller 4:55
Josué Cardona 4:55
Garfant. You did your homework Yeah, so again, I think there’s, there’s there’s something really cool about this idea in media of this, like, joining together of powers, but just not not just like, Oh, it’s a team. It’s like no, what if we, what if we could fuse and come together and become this new thing? And I love that stuff. And and I don’t know that having like Superman and Batman do it was it felt novel even though it’s something I’ve been seeing, you know, in other stuff for years. There you go Western media catching up with with anime and manga. So, so yeah. So how do you feel about fusion? And what are your favorite fusions? I’m very, very curious. Do you know what fusion is? Marc?
Marc Cuiriz 5:46
I, I may have I might have a couple of of ideas of what fusion is. I
Josué Cardona 5:54
here on Geek Therapy’s official Dragon Ball podcast.
Marc Cuiriz 5:57
Yeah, that we’re, you know, Geek Therapy is official Steven Universe podcast. So I might I might have dabbled a little bit in the idea of fusion here. So for me, I have a whole wide like a lot of the fusion stuff that kind of comes to mind is obviously Steven Universe. But as I mentioned last week, been really on this whole Dragon, Dragonball Z train. So it’s all like right there. I actually think one of my favorite fusions in Dragonball Z at least and this is a, this is an answer that I’m sure nobody’s really expecting. But it’s actually Piccolo. Because here’s the idea with Piccolo, like you have kind of like in Dragonball Z, you have Kami. And then you have Piccolo. And at some points, like, like before, like Dragon Ball even began, they split apart, or the original Namic had split themselves in two because there was this more corrupted more evil half and then there was the good half, the good half became Kami and the other half became the original King Piccolo, and then Goku then defeats King Piccolo and Dragon Ball. But then he like splits. Yeah, split, split, splits on an egg that becomes the piccolo that we see throughout the whole show. And then during the Android slash Cell Saga, they come together and realize that if they were to rejoin and become whole again, then they would have this exponential power that, you know, in as I’ve as I’m rewatching they even said like, nail as he was dying. And before he fused with Piccolo said, if you guys were whole, you would be able to take on Frieza no problem. So that like says a lot about how this is like more of a reconciliation between
Josué Cardona 8:01
Marc Cuiriz 8:02
the like, there’s the darker side of of who we are as people and the sides that we, you know, maybe present or the good attributes of ourselves. And they learn to coexist, and they come together to make you whole again, and then once you are at peace with those things, you have this giant power up this giant power boost. And that’s why I think piccolo or the Namic that has long since forgotten his name is probably one of my favorite fusions of Dragonball
Josué Cardona 8:37
I love I love the fact that you use the word reconciliation. And and basically you’re describing things like Carl Jung’s integration of the shadow. That’s a great way to kick off a conversation.
Marc Cuiriz 8:52
I surprise people sometimes.
Josué Cardona 8:54
That is a good yeah, I hadn’t. I hadn’t thought of that.
Marc Cuiriz 8:57
No one really does. But I think I think it’s because I’m rewatching it now.
Josué Cardona 9:01
Marc Cuiriz 9:01
And then like, obviously, like, I’m paying attention more to the dialogue. It’s like, Oh, that makes a lot of sense. And then you look at it from just these different viewpoints. And it’s like, Oh, I see. It’s, it’s these two halves that were fighting for so long. And even when they’re even when they’re like trying to like when Piccolo is trying to convince Kami, Kami’s like, No, I do not want this. But it’s after they sort of are able to sort of talk it through and then they try to come to the realization like no, we have to work together like this is who we are. However, Piccolo obviously has undergone a tremendous amount of change over the years with gohan because of Gohan and comic and now see that which is why now he’s more willing to work together with Piccolo in this sense. And then they become
Josué Cardona 9:13
Marc Cuiriz 9:37
whole again. Yeah, they become integrated But that’s the dragonball z one my favorite fusion of Steven Universe. I just want to touch on this. I would have to say it is Rainbow quartz 2.0.
Josué Cardona 10:16
Marc Cuiriz 10:17
I just kind of like, I like the style, it’s new. And it’s because of the way rainbow quartz 2.0 sort of presents themselves. It’s different than any other fusion that we’ve seen. And I just kind of like the, the kind of wittiness like the, like, kind of I care free sort of lax nature of rainbow quartz. And then like, the whole Mary Poppins with the umbrella is also just fun. So
Josué Cardona 10:51
remind me That’s it’s Steven and Pearl, right? Yes, that’s, that’s rainbow quartz.
Marc Cuiriz 10:57
Josué Cardona 10:58
2.0, yes. Because the original was with Rose,
Marc Cuiriz 11:04
Josué Cardona 11:04
Got it got it
Marc Cuiriz 11:05
And that one was more of like a 80s dancer.
Josué Cardona 11:12
I like I like how, like, in that sense, it’s almost like comparing kami and Piccolo is very much like, two halves. They came apart and now they’re coming back together. And then in with Steven Universe, like, you see examples like rainbow quartz 2.0. It’s like, like a mother and a son. Right? It’s like, like that relationship. In Dragonball, you have people who don’t like each other. Very much like Goku and Vegeta coming together? Because they, it? It’s like the relationship doesn’t matter, in a sense, sometimes, right? Because what you’re trying to achieve is something different. But there are other examples where like those relationships matter a lot into in what is being built or created. Just different examples of that. Like, it’s so many examples to choose from.
Marc Cuiriz 12:08
I’ve got I’ve got plenty of Dragonball Z analogies, but I want to give the others a chance to speak
Josué Cardona 12:13
How did you feel? How does it feel to not be able to just watch things anymore? And have to take notes and and think about? Can I talk about this on the podcast? Can I make
Lara Taylor 12:23
it I’ll never be the same marc never be the same.
Josué Cardona 12:26
You con’t just watch something
Marc Cuiriz 12:26
you know You know, you guys say this. And sometimes I’m like, God damn it. Other times, I’m like, No, this is really interesting. And I’m glad I’m being able to now view things from a particular lens. And it’s having me it because I crave deep insightful things. And because I’m a I like to dabble with philosophy and stuff, just like when I view things from a different perspective, and I can sort of see like, these different things, it raises new questions for me, I’m like, Ah, well, what about this? Oh, okay. Now this kind of plays into this. All right, now I see it. So it’s kind of fun and exciting. And there are times when I can actually just turn my brain off. And I’m just watching an image enjoying the show, so I can still just sit there and watch something.
Marc Cuiriz 12:37
I don’t remember what that’s like. You’re lucky. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Marc Cuiriz 13:20
Yeah, that’s that’s the that’s the one thing I think my ADHD for is the fact that I can still turn off my brain and just kind of just sit in that flow state and enjoy it and be able to retain what I’m watching. But not put any hardcore thought into it.
Josué Cardona 13:36
Well, fusion is we hope at least fusion is been ruined for you and you can’t just watch things fuse and from now on.
Lara Taylor 13:45
What is the meaning behind that?
Josué Cardona 13:47
Yeah, going with integration of the shadow was like That’s Wait, yeah, that was that was deep. that was something? Yeah. What about you, Lara, what how do you feel about fusions?
Lara Taylor 13:59
Um, there are so many examples of fusions, my brain went into two very different directions. Let’s start with the one that’s a little more fucked up. My anime example.
Josué Cardona 14:17
No, no, I did not expect that we would do this. Please, please. Please don’t say full metal
Lara Taylor 14:25
That’s what I was gonna say, I’m not gonna say it now
Josué Cardona 14:27
please don’t say your wife’s name.
Lara Taylor 14:30
She’s also in the other example, but okay, but this was I just think about the idea. I’m not gonna go into detail about what this fusion is but it is the one that like breaks your brain and your heart when it happens. But the idea behind when two things come together, is it meant to? and taking responsibility for in this situation in full metal it is not their choice, but choosing Who you’re, who you’re fusing with carefully? And what you’re fusing with carefully. Is it actually going to work? That’s all I’m gonna go into on that one.
Josué Cardona 15:10
wait wait wait
Lara Taylor 15:11
Now I don’t wanna talk about it.
Josué Cardona 15:12
No. I did not expect to go here. I tried to stay away from from thinking about
Lara Taylor 15:19
Josué Cardona 15:19
I mean I had a dog for like, Yeah, always. But it it. I love the point that you’re making, right? Because in that example, in the show, these are like chimeras, right is the idea. Yeah. So you’re putting things together. But this guy just did it just just to see if he could, basically right there was no, there was no,
Lara Taylor 15:41
sometimes the sum of the parts doesn’t make something better necessarily.
Josué Cardona 15:46
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think I think it’s a it’s a great example, as well of like, oh, you know, peanut butter and jelly works. Why not? Peanut butter and
Lara Taylor 15:55
my dad eats peanut butter and pickle relish sandwiches. I think it’s disgusting. Why
Josué Cardona 15:59
not? Peanut butter? pickle relish.
Link Keller 16:02
okay but peanut butter and pickle is also a classic combination. So even if you find it distasteful, it is long, long history there.
Marc Cuiriz 16:11
That history deserves to be forgotten.
Link Keller 16:13
nah you guys are wrong
Josué Cardona 16:14
Hey, don’t don’t yuck yums.
Lara Taylor 16:16
don’t, we’re not yucking yums.
Josué Cardona 16:17
how dare you
Marc Cuiriz 16:17
You’re right. You’re right. You’re right. You’re right.
Lara Taylor 16:20
My dad and Link can like peanut butter and pickles. That’s fine. Yeah,
Josué Cardona 16:25
I mean, pickles and pickle relish also, two slightly different things.
Link Keller 16:30
So there’s peanut butter and bread and butter pickle slices. So it’s not like a dill pickle. It’s like a sweet.
Josué Cardona 16:37
Link Keller 16:38
and I haven’t had that in 20 years. So
Lara Taylor 16:42
but it’s like
Josué Cardona 16:43
peanut butter and jelly. My favorite fusion.
Lara Taylor 16:46
One of my favorite real life fusions is a chocolate milkshakes and french fries. And people think I’m crazy sometimes for doing that. And but if I were to try and dip my french fries, in a strawberry milkshake, it wouldn’t taste the same and wouldn’t be as good to me.
Josué Cardona 17:06
I was gonna say like, I don’t think these count as fusions. But then I but then I remembered that I’m in Chicago, and there’s Portillo’s, and they sell a chocolate cake shake the kind of a fusion, right, because they throw the chocolate cake in there. And then they put the chocolate shake. Right? Like they make something up, that’s more of a fusion that’s not like dipping
Lara Taylor 17:23
that’s more of a fusion. But it’s, it’s the idea that like things don’t necessarily go well together and making a choice about what you’re going to fuse with and spend your time with is important. Which leads me to my second fusion. This one this one, not not dark. I’m going to go Steven Universe as well. And Garnet is my favorite fusion. Nina and I have a poster of when Garnet; Ruby and Sapphire first fused. And it’s meant to go on our wall with like, all of our like wedding pictures and things like that, because and we wish that had come that the wedding episode of Steven Universe had come out before we got married. So we could have incorporated that into the wedding. She and I are kind of opposites in some ways. Our brains are work very differently. But like, we have a lot in common. And I think that when you get married, you definitely fuse with somebody and become something else. And so Ruby and Sapphire being Garnet is this like fusion of two differing personalities, very differing personalities that somehow work together and become better. And and in my situation with a wife, it’s like, we become better people. Garnet becomes a better person. Like it’s the coolest thing. Yeah, yeah.
Josué Cardona 18:54
You keep playing loose with the definition of fusion. But, but but there are no rules. So we’re, we’re good
Lara Taylor 19:01
we can’t fuse with people real life. garnet is a fusion. How was that? I’m not playing loose.
Josué Cardona 19:07
No, no, no, no, no, no, not not Garnet. Garnet is definitely a fusion. I meant like french fries and, and like a food but then also marriage. I was curious how we would see that if like, as far as relationships, right? Like you said like that like that’s like you but the both of you together are greater than the sum of your parts. I’m curious, do you all feel that way about relationships, not just romantic ones, but other types of relationships? Just curious.
Lara Taylor 19:37
I’ll touch on just as a marriage and family therapist you can have the couple can be the client, not the individual people. So they’ve used them become a separate entity. Same thing with a family, they fuse together, they become a unit a thing. So I think that way that’s fusion.
Josué Cardona 19:59
I’ve been thinking about, I was thinking about it earlier today, I was talking to a friend about a person who they were having a situation in their relationship. And the and I was I was thinking back to how difficult it was a time to work with couples and families, because you’re not working with an individual. Sometimes you completely agree with one person. But you can’t
Lara Taylor 20:23
That’s why I don’t work with couples.
Josué Cardona 20:26
It is hard sometimes, especially if it’s like, if it’s dealing with things that infuriate you. And you have to be like, no, no, no, it’s exactly it’s like it’s the couple. It’s not the individuals. It’s hard work. Yeah, yeah.
Lara Taylor 20:44
Well, it’s the people that can do that work.
Josué Cardona 20:49
That’s hard work. Yes. Link fusions?
Link Keller 20:56
Did you did you want to expand more on that relationship topic? or do you want me?
Josué Cardona 21:00
If you want to?
Link Keller 21:01
Josué Cardona 21:01
I mean, if you if you it’s up to you. Yeah.
Link Keller 21:04
I do think that relationships can be viewed through that lens. It, it really depends. It really, it really depends on the relationship.
Lara Taylor 21:18
Yeah. And that was my point of like, picking. Yeah, appropriately, who you’re fusing with.
Link Keller 21:26
Josué Cardona 21:26
Also, like, like, but also like, I don’t know, I’m, I’m pretty individualistic. Like, to me like to, like, I tend to see my role in a relationship more as a it’s, it’s like, literally a partnership and not so much of a joining. I think
Link Keller 21:48
that tends to be more of my perspective, as well.
Josué Cardona 21:50
Yeah. Yeah. There’s, there’s, like the idea of fusion, right? Like the what I wanted to the word I’m using is like, it’s just like, completely enmeshed, right? Like, it’s something completely new comes out of it. And I don’t see relationships that way. In general, I’m always like, how can you compliment me and I compliment you, but there’s still very like that lines are clearly there, we may be able to achieve more together, but it’s not like we’re a new thing. If anybody tried to do like a, what was it like? A, like a? Well give me a name of some celebrity couple that
Lara Taylor 22:29
Josué Cardona 22:30
Bennifer? Right, exactly? Something like that. Right? If anybody? I would not allow that. I would, I would I would reject. I would reject that type of thing.
Link Keller 22:38
I think, you know, you’re coming at it from sort of two different perspectives, right? There’s the aspect of a fusion of two people and having like, shared goals, where it’s like they are working together to do something versus a shared identity, which is a little bit distinct there.
Josué Cardona 22:57
that’s a good point. That’s a good point. Yeah.
Link Keller 22:59
That’s, that’s one of the things I love about Steven Universe is that it shows both both directions, right. Garnet is very much a combination of identities while Oh, onyx, is that right? I think it’s Onyx.
Marc Cuiriz 23:20
you mean, Sardonyx?
Link Keller 23:24
Maybe. But no, I’m thinking of Pearl and Garnet combining so that they can smash the the temple thing
Marc Cuiriz 23:34
pearl and garnet is Sardonyx.
Josué Cardona 23:38
Link Keller 23:39
Yes, and then
Lara Taylor 23:39
but that’s Garnet and Pearl and not Ruby, Sapphire and pearl in that way, the way that
Link Keller 23:47
certainly, but when they introduce that character, they are like they are doing it to achieve a goal which is destroying the building in a way that it will stay destroyed. And then in that episode, how much of a betrayal that is because Pearl is going back and undoing that work that they are meant to be achieving together. Anyways, Stevonnie is my favorite fusion. I love them so much. I think they’re really sweet. And I think that even within the world of Steven Universe Stevonnie is very special in that there aren’t other human fusions and so Stevonnie is an experience I brought some other examples.
Josué Cardona 24:43
I have a question.
Link Keller 24:44
Josué Cardona 24:44
Didn’t Greg ever fuse?
Link Keller 24:48
Greg and Steven fuse.
Josué Cardona 24:49
Because I did right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I was like, No, there’s another I thought, yeah. Is that the only human who fused Okay.
Link Keller 24:56
Josué Cardona 24:59
I’ll just say Trying to remember. Yeah, I
Link Keller 25:01
was you are 100%. I was just thinking about when Stevonnie happened, how it was a big deal because it was thefirst time, it is not the only time.
Josué Cardona 25:09
Yeah, I mean, but I think those two examples are great because it’s, it’s like that shouldn’t be possible. But Steven is is special and his connection to them is so like, the love for them is so deep and the connection is so good that it’ll you know, it makes it possible. Sorry, please continue. Other examples.
Link Keller 25:31
Other examples, I thought of Pacific Rim movies, the people who control the Jaeger
Josué Cardona 25:40
gotta be in sync,
Link Keller 25:41
they have to they have to sync up, they have to have a shared goal in how they are going to control the Jaeger and move around and do things and when they d sync it makes it stopped working. I think that’s a an interesting way of doing that. I like I like that idea. I think that that idea is more interestingly examined in a book called Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee, which apparently, is a trilogy. I’ve only read the first book, so I don’t know how it shakes out. But it is a very cool sci fi book. And it has a whole premise where there are like, whole armies of people, where when they do like a dance move together. It’s like that’s how they do powerful actions. And it’s very, it’s very neat. And then in another book that I really really love is called Iron widow by Xiran Jay Zhao. And that, that is, is described as a YA novel Pacific Rim meets Handmaid’s Tale. It has a little bit of like Chinese historical fiction in it, it has a true polyamorous triad in it.
Josué Cardona 27:13
Link Keller 27:15
Lara Taylor 27:15
Mechas Hell yeah. Very, very Josué YA novel,
Josué Cardona 27:19
I bought it and I just haven’t listened to it.
Link Keller 27:22
Josué Cardona 27:22
I listened to like the first chapter.
Lara Taylor 27:24
Link Keller 27:24
So good. But yeah, that has, I’m gonna do, I’m gonna do some spoilers here. It’s very briefly.
Josué Cardona 27:32
Link Keller 27:33
It is it is revealed. Like the the way that the mechs work is that a man and a woman work together to power the Mech. And the main character Wu Zetian discovers that the chairs that the two people sit in the women, the woman’s chair has a system in it, that weakens, her so that the men are able to control the whole thing, and the women are just sort of supporting by giving their power. But she’s so powerful. She busts the system, it’s buck wild, it’s so good, it really touches on a lot of feminist ideas in that, but I think that that’s a really important aspect to this idea of fusion is like there are ways that when people fuse together, that sometimes one person is sort of consuming the other. There is like a leader in the fusion. You can see that sometimes in like, the more multiple people like Power Rangers and stuff is like there is like the head person.
Josué Cardona 28:45
Link Keller 28:46
but um, I think I think that’s a fun way to sort of talk about this stuff too sort of get into like, if we are talking about relationships, yeah, the way that sometimes that there can very much be a leading role and a supporting role and the way that that can be useful in some instances, and also really, really bad and negative in other instances.
Josué Cardona 29:11
Yeah. I’m curious if in iron widow is it, like is it something about like, the concept of feminine energy and male energy having to come together to like,
Link Keller 29:25
basically, what it comes out to is that if the two pilots aren’t like really evenly matched in their power, one will just sort of absorb the other one. And so they built the system in a way that would make it so that the men would always be the ones that would survive.
Josué Cardona 29:47
Got it, but it doesn’t have to be?
Link Keller 29:49
they’ve culturally decided as men are worth more even even if the woman is an even match. Like even if they would successfully do it. They intentionally make her weaker through the chair so that they can confirm that the man will survive
Josué Cardona 30:08
Link Keller 30:10
lots of spoilers there, but I swear to god people please read this book. It’s so good.
Lara Taylor 30:14
Forget all of that before you listen to it Josué
Josué Cardona 30:17
No, I mean that that makes me want to read it more.
Link Keller 30:19
There’s a sequel coming out fairly soon. Maybe later this year, maybe early next year, but I’m very excited. Yeah, I’m the author also has some other has another book that is out, but I haven’t read it yet.
Josué Cardona 30:32
Okay, yeah. I love that.
Link Keller 30:34
It’s really good.
Josué Cardona 30:35
Marc, Marc, correct me on this. But in, in Dragon Ball, when there’s two different versions right of Goku and Vegeta. There’s, there’s Gogeta and Vegito.
Marc Cuiriz 30:53
There you go.
Josué Cardona 30:53
Yeah, right. And one is one uses the dance. The other one uses the earrings. But the name that starts at the beginning is more isn’t? Is it? Does it actually make? Because I know they have slightly different personalities. But is it? Because? Is it like what Link is talking about that? One of them is kind of leading?
Marc Cuiriz 31:14
I I don’t know if it’s necessarily fully confirmed. But I think that that was kind of like the theory or like, kind of like what was kind of like the general consensus of like, what type of like, what personality traits from both of the, like both of the
Josué Cardona 31:30
oh, that fighter isn’t just like two different versions. But yeah, so like, it’s all the one leading the other?
Marc Cuiriz 31:36
Yeah, like they’re both together. But it’s like what personality traits are being more shone through. So like with Vegito, it’s a combination between Vegeta and Kakarot, not Vegeta and Goku, so more of the saiyan traits are there, which is why they’re like, really cocky. And like, you know, they’re willing to show off basically, because they’re so confident in their fighting abilities. Whereas Gogeta is more of that combination between Goku and Vegeta. So there’s a little bit more of like, a mercy there. Like, it’s more apparent, I mean, Vegito is the same way like, he would show mercy. But I think it’s like more, I think it’d be less likely for Vegito to showcase like a sense of mercy, kind of like how Goku was with Frieza. And getting some of his energy. Whereas Gogeta, especially in this is some small spoilers for Broly, the movie, but there when in their fight, he sees that the sky gets dark, so he knows that the dragon is being called. So he kind of just knows that, like they’re gonna make a wish to send him back, be when they because they know that he’s beaten, which is why it shows that he doesn’t give any remorse of like, he’s just going to full send this, this blast. But he already knew that, like, no, they were going to be saved. That’s why he like smiles and looks up at the sky, because he knew that they were sending him back to his planet or sending him away. So he wasn’t really in any sort of danger, even though the battle was far, like completely won by that point.
Josué Cardona 33:17
So like Gogeta wouldn’t do that but Vegito would.
Marc Cuiriz 33:19
I have a feeling Vegito Vegito would more likely I mean, you see that with Zamasu. Like, they’re fully ready to just, you know, kick his ass, it’s just then the fusion runs out. And then you know, they need it for the plot to keep moving, keep the story moving forward, you know, you need these sort of things to happen. So, but I think that’s kind of like the general consensus is and even just watching the movies and seeing Gogeta, even in GT, compared to Vegito, and how he’s been showcased and portrayed, that’s just kind of what I pick up on is that Vegito is more saiyan, and Gogeta is more of like that kind human part.
Josué Cardona 34:00
That’s that. Yeah, that’s it. That’s an interesting piece to the idea of fusing, could you fuse in different ways? Like if you fused? could fuse? And that could there be three different fusions of two people? Right, because certain personality aspects or certain skills or whatever could be could be appropriate for the occasion? Or the mood that you’re in at the time? I don’t know, you might be completely different at a different point in time.
Marc Cuiriz 34:35
And, you know, I wasn’t I was debating on how like, what I where I wanted to go in terms of the fusion piece of things. Because I know you you were wanting to talk about, you know, Batman and Superman, you were like, No, this is really cool. And
Josué Cardona 34:50
that was just a catalyst
Marc Cuiriz 34:51
Yeah, that was your catalyst and I was like, Hmm, do I want to run on this parade right now
Josué Cardona 34:56
Marc Cuiriz 34:57
and I was like,
Lara Taylor 34:57
I already did. So go ahead
Marc Cuiriz 34:59
and then And I heard what you said. And I was like, oh, okay, so now all cards off the table not good. Because I wanted to showcase that like, yes, fusions can be really great and cool. But like Lara said, there are some times when a fusion is happening. And either a it shouldn’t, or B, the fusion itself isn’t it’s more of a, like, a forced upon thing. And in some cases, you can think of that as more of like, someone’s taking control of somebody or in cases like that. But I’d still argue that it in some ways, it is a fusion of some kind. Like a general instance of this would be like Voldemort and Professor Quirrell in.
Link Keller 35:50
Sorry, I didn’t even
Lara Taylor 35:52
that’s a fusion though
Marc Cuiriz 35:54
Yeah, you wouldn’t. But you wouldn’t think. You wouldn’t think about that. But that’s technically That’s technically a fusion however, is it? One, is it a good fusion? Should they be? Absolutely not, in my opinion, two? It’s also one that I feel is more of a forced one where it’s like siphoning the lifeforce away. And, or you have fusions that create
Marc Cuiriz 35:54
I don’t think Quirrell opted into that fusion either. I think that was a take over
Marc Cuiriz 36:04
exactly. So again, it’s another one that’s more forced, or you have this is kind of a little out there. But bear with me here for a second, like Danny Phantom, when they overshadow people, you could, again, it’s ghost stuff. So it’s a little different, it’s a little more tricky, but you could argue that it’s still in some way shape, or form like a fusion of a kind, but at that point, it’s a ghost overshadowing and taking over someone else’s body. And while Danny can use it for good, the other ghosts use it for evil, for, you know, for their own nefarious purposes and whatnot. But I know that there are other things out there, like I’m sure there’s a lot of like, other different for, like shows or movies that I haven’t even seen where the fusions, or takeovers like that are, are like things coming together are more forced. And obviously, one participant is not willing. So it just becomes like a like, in a way they’re almost like a vessel. or something else.
Josué Cardona 37:22
Lara Taylor 37:22
I was thinking of I know moon knight is mostly about a fractured mind, right. But the the Egyptian gods take over literally vessels, their their avatars are basically vessels, and some of them are willing and some of them are not. And you can see how that plays out different ways for people who have accepted this. I mean, in in the show like he literally, he’s doing it because he was going to die otherwise. So he allowed Khonshu to take him over. So there’s yeah, there’s plenty of other examples.
Josué Cardona 38:05
Yeah. And then in Moon Knight, right, like they take turns, right? They don’t really didn’t really.
Link Keller 38:09
Lara Taylor 38:11
Like, separate. That’s a whole separate piece. Right. The DID is separate. And he had DID before Khonshu took over.
Josué Cardona 38:19
but Khonshu doesn’t control him, right?
Lara Taylor 38:22
At one point. Yes, he does.
Marc Cuiriz 38:23
Yes. Yeah. Cuz he talks and speaks through him. Kind of like, Oh, well. Forth. And all all of the gods are missing their battles. Yeah.
Lara Taylor 38:33
That’s a that’s a fusion because they they take on the persona ng get these like, these cool outfits. And everything when they’re fighting, you know? Yeah,
Josué Cardona 38:43
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I was thinking back to something you said before, Link, about identity, right? Like, maybe maybe it is like something that you want to do. But then what if you lose yourself in it? Right, like you and that happens. Right? You’re in a relationship? Whoo, go for it.
Link Keller 39:02
I think that this is, I’m going to use it as a segue here, or an expansion. Honestly, I think that this what we’re talking about this idea of fusion in media, is often used to explore relationships, which we’ve already talked about. But I think it also can be used to explore collective action, the way that groups of people can do greater things than any individual person can do. My immediate thought was the 2020 Hong Kong protests in the videos of hundreds of people communicating with each other using hand signals to go up to the frontlines and back to communicate what you know, tools that they needed when they needed first aid. You know, Make paths clear very quickly to get first aid through all sorts of things like one person with a megaphone would not have been able to do what those hundreds of people did working together as a group. I think that that that is more on the, like I said earlier is there’s the identity side. And there’s more with the collective goal side. I think that that’s more on that side. But I think media likes to explore both aspects of that.
Josué Cardona 40:30
Yeah, yeah, that’s what I like them. Because we can use I mean, we can use this idea of fusion for all sorts of metaphors. And there is something different between like, there’s, there’s a difference between a whole bunch of people coming together and doing something. And, and just like a cohesive in sync thing, right, that makes like, those people formed a line, right. Like, like they extended their reach. They extended their voice in ways that it’s different than Yeah, like it’s not to say it’s not just the the adding of people I get does almost form a new, a new form, forms a form
Lara Taylor 41:09
When Link was describing that I was thinking immediately of Sense8 and how the eight of them
Link Keller 41:15
what a great example! why didn’t I bring that up?? Oh, my God,
Lara Taylor 41:19
where are the eight of them are individual people with individual lives, individual relationships, and then spoilers by the end of the show. They are one big group, big family that can move in and out of each other’s bodies and take over and work in sync across the world. And it’s almost like everybody’s in a relationship with everybody at the end. And I love the way the show handles that and talks about how and ultimately, when we’re talking about fusions, one of the first things that I think of as being stronger together, even though the first example I brought up is how we’re not stronger together. And sometimes we shouldn’t be together. But this idea that as if we work together for common goals or interests, we can do more, right?
Josué Cardona 42:10
Lara Taylor 42:11
Take down evil government agencies and all of that.
Josué Cardona 42:15
Yeah. And, um, in Dragon Ball, there is a version of like, Well, that too, I think of like failed. fusions are like they don’t come together. Exactly. Correct. One of them is, is between Goku and Vegeta. And it’s called the Veku. And it’s like, his body is not optimized, his attitude not he’s clumsy, like all these things happen because they didn’t fuse correctly. So it’s very much like if they were out of sync, kind of like it went in Pacific Rim, right. Like, if they’re not perfectly in sync, like the, the the jaegers are kind of wobbling, and they’re not functioning properly. And yeah, I think I think there’s so many different ways to to see it. I’m really happy with all the examples that that have come up.
Link Keller 43:12
Yeah, we’ve had some really good examples. I’m proud of us.
Josué Cardona 43:15
Link Keller 43:16
It’s almost like when we work together, we can do really great things.
Josué Cardona 43:23
Way better than any of us individually.
Link Keller 43:27
Oh my gosh
Lara Taylor 43:28
and you go even further the four of us here on this show. Like we’ve had different groups of people together on this show. And each vibe we get is different. Like when Brandon was on the show, things were different. When Ali was on the show things are different when it’s just me and Josué or was just Josué and Link or just me and Link like, or Josué is not here and we bring on Kayla, like it’s very different vibes and we fuse into different things.
Josué Cardona 43:57
Yeah. Yeah. Is Captain America a fusion? Captain America?? Captain Planet? Captain America captain Planet
Lara Taylor 44:06
Sure, with our power combined.
Josué Cardona 44:08
Right, but like, they don’t really have any
Lara Taylor 44:10
no it’s just the power of their rings?
Josué Cardona 44:14
Yeah. Yeah, it’s like poor Captain Planet can’t can’t do anything unless these five kids agree to let him out. It’s kind of kind of messed up in that way. But originally, I was thinking about that one, but I don’t think it counts as a fusion.
Link Keller 44:29
Yeah, he just sort of exists
Lara Taylor 44:31
does Power Rangers count as a fusion because none of them fuse is just the zords that fuse,
Josué Cardona 44:37
right? But but the five like the five zords come together and they form something completely new, which is the Megazord and they’re still they’re all still controlling the individual pieces. So it’s a it’s a new thing. Right but in in Captain Planet, they’re all like they’re just throwing their power into when they when you mix these five ingredients. Surprise, it becomes blue and sentient.
Lara Taylor 44:58
Mm. Hmm. So he is a fusion of earth, fire, water, air, and heart.
Link Keller 45:08
Lara Taylor 45:09
but not the people
Link Keller 45:10
I think he exists
Lara Taylor 45:11
not the people but the fusion of those thingss
Link Keller 45:14
on his own people power combined is what like summons him more so than, like controlling or creating him, like, sort of already exists on his own. But
Josué Cardona 45:26
I hope so
Link Keller 45:26
it’s been a really long time since I’ve seen and or thought about Captain Planet so I can be mistaken about that.
Josué Cardona 45:32
Lara Taylor 45:33
I have a Captain Planet board game in the other room that we just played.
Josué Cardona 45:37
Does it go into where he goes when he’s not summoned by these teenagers.
Lara Taylor 45:40
No, it is it is not the best board game. It’s just roll the dice and move and eventually hope you collect enough pieces to clean up the planet.
Josué Cardona 45:52
It’s it’s Rick and Morty that does like a parody of a Captain Planet person. Right? And they play with that idea of like how these these kids are always like, the he has no free will. So he kind of he kind of takes him out because he because he wants to be free.
Link Keller 46:08
I don’t remember that
Josué Cardona 46:10
No? Is this a thing? I need someone to confirm that is real
Link Keller 46:14
is that in the most recent season of Rick and Morty because I don’t think I watched that.
Josué Cardona 46:19
I don’t know. It was in a season. I don’t remember when it when it happened. But yes, there’s like this Captain Planet character. And basically it’s that. Yeah, that I think that’s what I’m thinking about it like, where does he go? Like
Lara Taylor 46:34
Rick and Morty Planetina is the parody of Captain Planet.
Lara Taylor 46:39
Lara Taylor 46:41
Josué Cardona 46:41
Thank you. Okay. I’m not recommending I’m just saying it happened.
Lara Taylor 46:47
Josué Cardona 46:48
and it taps into the you know. That’s what inspired by thoughts about how Captain Planet’s kinda messed up. I hope they are just summoning him and he likes to be summonded.
Lara Taylor 46:58
He seems to be happy. He smiles.
Josué Cardona 47:00
He’s, he’s enthusiastic. Yeah. Okay.
Marc Cuiriz 47:06
You know what I’m thinking about Captain planet and like, you’re saying how it’s like the elements and then hearts are combining and like that could be considered a fusion? Would you then consider the avatar a fusion?
Lara Taylor 47:19
The Avatar is a fusion of the Spirit Raava and a human.
Marc Cuiriz 47:25
You know, and both avatars this actually works? Because you have Yeah, you have Raava and the avatar and in. In and, you know, yeah, whatever. Whoever it is, in the most recent thing is Korra. Exactly. Like they are a fusion together. And then like in the legends of Korra, you have I forget what the like Navtu? Navatu? I don’t remember the evil one.
Lara Taylor 47:51
Ah, Vaatu. And I just watched this, like last week, and Unalaq, yeah,
Marc Cuiriz 47:59
Unalaq and Vaatu. Like, they’re a fusion. And I think like, that’s another thing that’s really cool. Because like, this is a fusion that can work with the, like, the parts. And also, just because like they are the sum of all these different pieces, through, you know, the years kind of come together. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they are stronger, in a sense, like, yes, they have, they can control the elements there. You know, they can do all the things, that’s all fine and dandy, that makes them super powerful. However, like, with the example of Aang like, he goes back, and he tries to talk to all his past lives, and they all have different answers of like, violence, violence, violence is the only answer. And even though he’s the sum of all these parts, he’s like, that’s not the right way. And to me, at least, and I’m gonna go a different way. And then he’s creating an adding on a different power in my eyes. So then when Korra comes along, she now has access to that power, until she loses it. But then, but even so I think it’s she moreso loses the ability to connect with it. However, all those pieces are still with her. Just now it’s all internalized rather than let me just sit here and meditate and just whip out this spirit and just have a conversation with it wholeheartedly
Josué Cardona 49:33
to like access to this stuff, but not necessarily,
Marc Cuiriz 49:39
but not necessarily losing the fusion itself, like the fusion is still there. With all the past lives. It’s just now it’s not accessible to her.
Lara Taylor 49:47
That’s very interesting because each avatar has their own relationship with their past lives and the spirit Raava whether they know she’s there or not. I’m reading the dawn of Yang Chen. which is a new novel that just came out like last month about the air avatar before Aang. And she ends up having flashbacks of the lives of past avatars and think she’s them. And that’s a whole other experience and a whole other fusion where people are not necessarily taking over. But like, the experiences of these past lives are taking over and she like, like someone’s claustrophobic. And she’s like, Oh, no, not, you know, no, don’t come back. And all of a sudden, she freaks out. So yeah,
Josué Cardona 50:42
I do like those examples, like. I think that Dax and Star Trek is probably more
Lara Taylor 50:49
that’s one I thought of,
Josué Cardona 50:50
yeah. Because like, those skills are, like, there’s built there, you’re building upon them, right? Like you are a new person you aren’t you are like, that’s more like a fusion. But then. Then, like Deku, in my hero, academia, there’s like this power, and then you have access to everybody who had it before. It sounds very much like, like Avatar, like that example. It’s like, oh, we, but in that case, it’s the same power. And there’s just like these, like spirits connected to it. You’re not really, it’s like, you’re still an individual, you just have access to some. I guess it’s more like pro tips at that point. Because you can kind of consult with the with the previous versions.
Lara Taylor 51:33
Josué Cardona 51:34
Or the previous owners of it.
Lara Taylor 51:36
The avatar is like, the fusion of the spirit and the person. Because that’s where the avatarness comes from.
Josué Cardona 51:46
Yeah. All right. Well, Link, do you have any any other examples? What would be the best fusion of all time?
Link Keller 51:56
Hmm, oh, I have a bad joke. But I’m not I’m not gonna say it actually. Um, I think I like that we keep sort of coming back to this. Fusion versus possession is like an idea that comes up in media a lot. Where there is there is the combination of individuals to be, you know, greater than the sum of its parts. And then there is the great power overtakes other lesser powers to fulfill some sort of goal. I think that that’s very interesting that people resonate with those kinds of stories. We’re interested in that idea of the way that power compounds versus is shared or taken. Very interesting stuff.
Josué Cardona 52:45
Yeah. Yeah. Cuz, right. You could, you could, you could be thinking about it and thinking like, yeah, this situation, I feel, I feel empowered, or I feel like, I feel like more in this relationship, or in this situation, or with these people. You can also feel the other way. It’s like, I feel stifled, I feel like I’m losing myself. I feel like I’m being used. Yeah, but I’m glad you brought up the identity piece, because that’s, that’s something. All right, any closing thoughts? Marc?
Marc Cuiriz 53:23
There was one fusion that I did kind of want to talk about that i It’s mostly just like a, an interesting concept of a fusion, but not really one that kind of pertains to really anything we’ve talked about. So that’s why I never brought it up. But I wanted to sort of highlight this part of like, kind of how Link was saying, like this idea of like fusion versus possession and how oftentimes in media, it’s usually like a supernatural force that’s overtaking a human. But there’s one piece at least from the best of my memory that I can remember where it’s kind of the opposite. And that’s Neon Genesis. When Shinji causes the was it the second or third impact? Because it’s his sheer willpower and determination to save Rei or to get to Rei. But he essentially fuses with his Ava because they’re in complete, like 100% Sync. So he’s fused with his Ava and it’s to the point where it’s his willpower and determination alone that is powering everything because they tried to shut it all down. And he’s like, nope, but it’s by then he’s forcing it to go even further beyond and then you know, then it causes the third impact, because too much Shinji went a little too far there. But still, it’s one of those instances where it’s like, the roles are reversed. Like it’s showing just how powerful us humans can be in terms of like, where our strengths lie, even if it’s not like a physical strength. It’s The power like the our own, like determinism, or our short is our our pure desire for something that can push us to a level that not a lot of people really ever see. So like that was like a interesting fusion for me and like when I think back on it, and I really, I really want to go back and just watch all of neon Genesis again.
Josué Cardona 55:22
So fun. Fun fact in the rebirth movies, there is a an EVA that needs two pilots. And it does kind of the the synchronized Jaeger thing. Definitely watch the rebirth movies. They are they are there. They are an experience.
Marc Cuiriz 55:41
I definitely will
Lara Taylor 55:42
everything about evangelion is an experience
Marc Cuiriz 55:46
it really is
Josué Cardona 55:47
like, you start watching these these new movies and you’re like, Wow, this looks really good. And the first movie is exactly like the series until the very end. And then everything else is like, oh, hard left, off ramp, like completely, you’d go into a completely different direction. It’s so good
Marc Cuiriz 56:05
Well, I think I remember watching the first three, it was the fourth one that like everyone was waiting for that was you know, took a very long time. But I think now it’s out I just
Josué Cardona 56:15
they’re on amazon prime all of them. Now,
Marc Cuiriz 56:19
I know what I’m doing this weekend.
Josué Cardona 56:21
But, but this happens I think a lot in in horror, especially where like a human is trying to tap into some demonic power Ghost or. And sometimes in some fantasy, right? It’s like, we’re going to take this God’s power this creature, whatever, right and like we’re going to use it for our own. For our own purposes, whether good or bad. That does come up a lot. So those are those are examples that we really didn’t talk about. Because it’s like there’s there’s like, No, there’s no consent there. There’s no agreement, just you’re doing a spell or doing something to take something from someone else. That sucks. If anybody feels like that, on either side of that that’s probably not healthy. Alright cool. Closing thoughts Lara?
Lara Taylor 57:15
I had all my all my thoughts.
Josué Cardona 57:17
Lara Taylor 57:17
all my thoughts. all my thoughts? Yeah. You got the good, the bad, the ugly.
Josué Cardona 57:24
Yeah. Well, thank you. Thanks, I guess, Link.
Link Keller 57:30
I think this was a lovely conversation. I’m excited to see what our audience has to add.
Josué Cardona 57:38
Beautiful closing thoughts. Thank you, everyone, for your amazing this this was good. This is good. That’s it. That’s a good example. Thank all of you for listening. Like link said, join the conversation in our community spaces. You can find links in the show notes, at geek therapy.org For more Geek Therapy. Remember to geek out and do good. I’ll be back next week
Link Keller 58:09
Josué Cardona 58:11
Geek Therapy is a 501 C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place to be culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geek therapy.org
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Characters / Media
- Batman/Superman Series
- Steven Universe
- Dragon Ball series
- Power Rangers
- Piccolo / Dragon Ball Z
- Kami / Dragon Ball Z
- Full Metal Alchemist
- Rainbow Quartz 2.0 / Steven Universe
- Garnet / Steven Universe
- Stevonnie / Steven Universe
- Pacific Rim (2013)
- Nine Fox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
- Iron Widow by Xiran Jay Zhao
- Gogeta and Vegito / Dragon Ball
- Dragon Ball Super: Broly
- Voldemort and Professor Quirrell / Harry Potter
- Danny Phantom
- Moon Knight
- Captain Planet
- Planetina / Rick and Morty
- Avatar / Avatar the Last Airbender / Legend of Korra
- The Dawn of Yang Chen by F. C. Yee
- Dax / Star Trek
- Deku / My Hero Academia
- Neon Genesis Evangelion
Themes / Topics
* Carl Jung
* Collective Action
* Finding Oneself/Identity Development
* Power struggle
* Problem Solving
* Working with others
* New Life Event (New Rules)
Links / Social Media
Check out the GT Network: network.geektherapy.com
GT Forum: forum.geektherapy.org
GT Discord: geektherapy.com/discord
GT Facebook Group: facebook.com/groups/geektherapy
Join the Conversation!
What are some of your favorite examples of fusion?